Will EIRE qualify via the playoffs? |
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PaddyDaCulchie
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 28 Feb 2018 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 476 |
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You cant justify results and performances by saying the talent pool is sh*t when he hasn't maximised what little talent he has, 2 or 3 more talented players would make f**k all difference when our style and set up is anti-football
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Shedite
Jack Charlton Joined: 09 Dec 2011 Status: Offline Points: 9820 |
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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His job was to get us to the Euros, by hook or by crook. I always felt it was a near impossible job, that hasn’t changed, but if he had done it he would have deserved huge plaudits. Despite not having the ramifications it could have had, not going all out for the win in Tbilisi is where it all went wrong. Until that point we were getting results and that was it he was brought in to do, even if the performances were turgid. He could argue about the talent then, but when you turn your nose up at an extra two points in Georgia, to make sure of one, it shows that the malaise isn’t just with the players. Given we had the play-offs anyway it feels like a waste of a year, not least because those mistakes are very likely to be repeated, possibly as a result of the mentality that a draw will always do, even in games they should at least think that they can win.
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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If we won 2, drew 6 and lost 2, that would represent a 50/50 chance of success - because you are willfully ignoring the fact that draws do not eliminate us. I never said that 2/10 represented a 50% success rate - you ignore the context of the playoffs and the fact of extra time and penalties. The figures posted above basically represent a 45% chance of progress, counting draws as giving us a 50% chance of progress on extra time and penalties, which is a fair rule of thumb. The fact you believe we don't have the mentality to win penalty shoot outs is neither here nor there; it also ignores entirely any analysis of the mentality of the opposition in a penalty shoot out. Similarly, it ignores the fact that any team we face on penalties will, of necessity, be of a similar level to us: they will be League B nations league teams who failed to qualify automatically. That is worth more than a vague assertion that we lack mentality. 2 wins, 5 draws, 3 losses; assuming we replicate our performances in the last ten games against similar opposition, that represents approximately a 45% chance of progress from each game.
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Rodneytrotter
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 08 Jun 2019 Status: Offline Points: 207 |
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Just how long has this conservatism been going on with Ireland managers ? Kerr , Trap ,MoN and Mick . I don’t count Stan . Is it back to Micks first reign !
Edited by Rodneytrotter - 20 Nov 2019 at 5:36pm |
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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Even taking that into account, our mindset would make me think we have about a 1/4 chance in a shootout.
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Left foot
Ray Houghton Joined: 16 Aug 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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Results are one thing, we haven't lost many games which is a good thing. Performance is different. Our performances have been awful. Our midfield has been shockingly poor and have struggled to string 3 passes together. This has gone on for years.
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Fitz
Liam Brady Joined: 12 Oct 2011 Location: Oileán Ciarraí Status: Offline Points: 2751 |
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Yep, and even worse is that fact that we’ve shown we can do at least somewhat better than that - when we’re not being overly-conservative/negative/fearful!
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Fruice
Liam Brady Joined: 22 Nov 2014 Location: Cork Status: Offline Points: 1260 |
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We didn’t lose many games with O Neill either the difference between him and Mick is he threw a few big wins into the mix also. Which were decent results ok we played poor but we got big results. And to date Mick has not so as of today Mick’s tenure has been a failure simple as that |
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t_rAndy
Robbie Keane Joined: 06 Feb 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 26242 |
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I don’t think we have been compete anti football with mick. He is trying to figure things out still though it seems, we have played differently in each game. We played a fairly decent style on Monday. I think we just need to upgrade the players and i think we already (or at least potentially) have the players in and around the squad. I think micks biggest flaw is his loyalty to players putting in ‘ decent shifts’ rather than players with more flair/creativity. It’s conservative but not anti-football. That said, I am looking forward to Kenny coming in. But for now I still think Mick can get the job done. We may need a penalty shootout to get there though!
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deise316
Moderator Group Don't ask me about car warranty Joined: 11 Apr 2009 Location: The Déise Status: Offline Points: 10921 |
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This article isn't a bad place to start. (Kieran Shannon, Examiner) People who think we are doing well/OK under Mick should have a read of it, but to be fair to Mick, it also highlights just how poor we've been over a longer period of time as regards scoring goals V reasonable opposition. Something I hadn't realised was just how poor we've been at scoring goals that aren't headers or set pieces, these goals are nearly gone completely alien to us. Well, what else did you expect the score to be?And when the boys in green would get their goal? And how it would come about? If there’s anything that has become as predictable over the last 30 years as the Irish national team drawing a major fixture one-all, it’s the timing and nature of the Irish goal. While last Monday night in the Aviva was that rare breed of 1-1 home draw where you were immensely satisfied with the performance but extremely disappointed with the outcome, it was remarkable how representative of the general 1-1 Irish experience it was. Of the four games Ireland played in this Euro 2020 qualifying group against fellow top-three opposition, three of them — 75% — ended up 1-1. In all three games the score was 0-0 after 72 minutes. Then, at some point over the following four minutes our opponents — Switzerland or Denmark — scored a goal, finished by a creative pass and a boot to the net. And then, in either the 85th or 86th minute, Ireland headed home an equaliser. A couple of those Irish goals were undoubtedly well worked; James McClean curling in that ball against the Swiss for David McGoldrick to swing his head at, Enda Stevens whipping in a ball from that same wing on Monday night for Matt Doherty to bop into the Danish net. But it’s amazing — and frankly arresting — how reliant Ireland have been on goals from headers and set pieces through the decades. Our only goal against Georgia over 180 minutes in this campaign came from a Conor Hourihane free kick; as well as we played that evening — our second-best performance of the campaign — we didn’t carve out a goal from general play. Contrast that to any respectable opposition we’ve played over the last 24 months. Since the first of five draws over that period with the Danes, a 0-0 draw in a first-leg World Cup qualifier in Copenhagen, Ireland have conceded 14 goals against what we’ll term top-three table opposition. All but one of those goals were finished by the foot, and all but one of those from general, creative play. In contrast our only goal both finished by foot and created from general play was Sean Williams’ consolation goal when Wales were already 4-0 up on us in a Nations League tie. Goals other teams get against us — some Bale individual brilliance, a necklace of Swiss one-touch passes outside and then inside the box, a look-up and chipped ball for Braithwaite to flick past the keeper — we don’t get against them. It has for so long been like thus. Though the Martin O’Neill era featured some particularly memorable well-worked goals — McClean’s strikes in Vienna and Cardiff, Robbie Brady in Lille, Wes’s wonder strike against the Swedes, and Shane Long’s against the Germans— they stood out for the irirregularity as much as their significance. So many of our goals in his tenure were either in injury time or from set pieces or headers — often, all three. Take one of the most unheralded but crucial results of O’Neill’s tenure, a 2-2 away draw in Serbia. Both Irish goals came from set pieces, the equaliser a Daryl Murphy header from a corner. Or our deflating 1-1 home draw with Scotland in that same campaign: Jon Walters scrambled home from a corner. Or Shane Long’s injury-time equaliser against Poland a month earlier — another 1-1 tie — from a corner. It was worse under Trap. Again, excluding fodder teams (the bottom two in each group), we had 24 competitive games over three campaigns and managed to come up with just five goals that were both created from open play and finished by foot; the other 16 goals — 76% — were either headers or conjured from set pieces. In contrast, only 12% of our opponents’ goals came from penalties or set pieces. Indeed, as we scoured YouTube yesterday for clips of every competitive goal scored and conceded by Ireland against non-fodder opposition, from the Aviva last Monday evening all the way back to Kevin Sheedy’s strike in Cagliari that set in motion all these one-alls, it is depressing how predictable the source of Irish goals tends to be. A Damien Duff bit of trickery before belting to the net from outside the edge of the box in a home Euro qualifier against Russia in 2003 jumped out for how rare a goal like that has been; a Robbie Brady goal in the Bosnian fog this time four years ago would be about the only effort that approximated it. Mattie Holland pile drivers, or Jason McAteer’s two goals against the Dutch over the 2002 World Cup qualifying campaign, or Mark Kennedy’s thunderbolt against Yugoslavia are goals that seem to have been consigned to the past as surely as they were so sweetly to the opponents’ nets. Outside of some good old-fashioned pouncing from Robbie Keane and we’ve become totally reliant on nicking goals through deadballs. That’s not romanticising the past. A cursory look at many of the one-ones we had under both Big Mick in his first stint in the job and indeed that of Big Jack illustrates that. A 1-1 home draw against Romania in 1997, a 1-1 home draw against England in 1990 — each headers from Cascarino. Or at home against the North in 1995 or the Danes in 1993 — each nodders from Niall Quinn. Alan McLoughlin’s strike at Windsor Park stands out for its brilliance as well as its importance. Since and including Cagliari, we make it 36 1-1 draws that Ireland have had in key competitive games. It is our default result and our default position, just like making the play-offs are. As Miguel Delaney of the Independent in London has noted, this is now the ninth time Ireland have been involved in a qualification playoffs since that route was reintroduced before Euro 96 — three more than any other European nation. While other countries, say Scotland, would envy such a record of consistent competitiveness, there’s an obvious reason we keep putting ourselves in such a position. We don’t go and beat the other top-three teams in our group 2-0; the only times we’ve managed to do that is against Croatia in 1998 and Hungary in ’89. We rarely even beat them by a single goal; Germany in 2015 and Holland famously in 2001 are the only times we’ve managed to do that in this millennium. Invariably we draw 1-1, geared to nick a goal from a set piece or a cross. Mick McCarthy in 2019 has represented some progress from Martin O’Neill in 2018. But it seems Irish football will need to wait for Stephen Kenny to carve out an ice sculpture or at least a footed goal from general play to break us out of this Groundhog Day. https://twitter.com/KieranShannon7 |
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Picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.....
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BriMurt
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 14 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Any manager worth his salt would walk into the Ireland setup, assess his resources and quickly come to the conclusion that he's not working with a stellar bunch of players and the best course of action is therefore to be defensive to start, and then maybe see about building on that foundation. Notice the correlation - Ireland's most liberal footballing period was back in the WC 2002 days, when it had some really talented, young players in the team, plus an experienced defensive line. That just hasn't happened since, so it's been increasing increments of conservatism. To put this another way, the closest that pretty much any of us will ever get to managing a professional team is in Pro Evo or FIFA. When I start a new Master League game in Pro Evo, and I choose the default team, you'd better believe I set them up defensively and just eke out whatever results I can that season until a few of my youth signings mature into decent players and/or I can nab a good free agent. True, I could notch the difficulty down, but my pride won't let me. Ireland managers are going to play conservatively until some real game-changing talent comes into the team. We could be waiting a while on that score, so I suggest we all embrace turgid defensive football.
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kearney304
Liam Brady Joined: 25 Feb 2014 Location: Cork Status: Offline Points: 1992 |
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LOL |
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kearney304
Liam Brady Joined: 25 Feb 2014 Location: Cork Status: Offline Points: 1992 |
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40% of people still reckon we can do it.
*** Lads we actually have to win a game
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Stickittotheman
Liam Brady Joined: 15 Sep 2015 Status: Offline Points: 2290 |
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No we don't. We can draw 1-1 and win on penos.
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Walters coming back from an offside position but Shane Long was definitely onside- Shane Lonnggggggg.... has done it!!!!
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Trap junior
Robbie Keane YBIG Minister of Doom & Gloom Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Location: Irish Riviera Status: Online Points: 39834 |
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I'm not sure what Kieran Shannon classifies as a well worked goal but he certainly doesn't share my criteria! McGoldrick's well worked goal v Switzerland???? It was a tackle and across into the box which deflected off some blokes head to send it into the path of McGoldrick. Nothing well worked about it. Merely a string of fortuitous circumstances and happenings. How in the name of God is Long's goal against Germany a well worked goal? Randolf under pressure hoofed it in a clearance and Long ran after it! Strangely the ball must have had backspin as it bounced backwards away from the German goal only to luckily bounce into Long's shin which by accident seemed to control the ball perfectly for him to go on to make a good shot and finish. This is nothing revelatory from Shannon. Myself and other been saying it for years. 1-1 our favourite result in history, the same tradition as qualifying for tournaments the hard way. Take a side like Poland. Ok they have Lewandowski but nowhere near a top team. Yet how many times lately have they cruised to qualification? Same for a few other very ordinary sides around our level. Why can we never do that? Because we have managers who tog themselves and thinks they will play for draws and that draws are a good result against anyone who is in the top 100 of the world rankings. Take Georgia. Denmark walked off the pitch depressed as fook. McCarthy walks off the pitch beaming after his draw. We are a 3rd world football nation because we have a terrible inferiority complex which is compounded by managers telling us how sh*t we are and how ''I would have taken a point''. Fook me! In my lifetime EIRE have been utter sh*te to watch and ALL our goals in major finals are almost embarrassing to watch. I even made a thread about it! We have always been crude and agricultural. Quinn in 1990 was probably the most embarrassing goal. All our goals came from a hoof. Robbie in 2002 against Germany when we at least played some football still came from a hoof. Aldridge in 1994 was probably our best goal. Can anyone name me a goal we have scored since 1988 that resembles somewhat Switzerlands goal against us in Lansdowne this year? That's 30 years of football. I bet there isnt one and if there is there would say there is a near certainty there isn't 2! We are a bit of a joke if you look at it objectively.
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Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC) |
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AonSceal19
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 30 Dec 2018 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Northern Ireland and part time Michael are going down on Bosnian soil again. Could be worse than the 2-0 last time. You can't half arse international football management.
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“Randolph sends it long…and Shane Long is in behind the German defence… Shane Long against Neuer…. 1-0!.. What a moment!”
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OnTheOneRoad
Ray Houghton Joined: 06 Nov 2014 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 4190 |
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I agree with most of the points, but Poland are not a very ordinary side around our level. They are a better version of Denmark, who themselves are above our level. They have Lewandowski, sure, but the other two strikers after him, Milik and Piatek, are both absolutely a million miles ahead of what we can field up front. Even if 2 of them are injured, they can field a top class striker. A goalscorer at this level is absolutely massive, they currently have 3. They've qualified with ease as a few years back they had Blaszczykowski and Piszczek at the peak of their powers at Dortmund, Glik as one of the best CBs in Europe, Krychowiak earning himself a move to PSG, and so on. Even now they have lads like Zielinski, Linetty, Szczesny along with older versions of the players previously mentioned to back up their extremely potent strike force. If it works out for a lot of our underage players, we'd still be doing very well to get to Poland's level. They're not elite but they're on the edge of it. I totally agree a negative mindset is holding us back, however. But our team is not good enough to 'cruise through qualification' at any time. Most importantly, we need at least one top class attacking option that can be our difference maker. The ordinary sides qualifying, as opposed to the ones staying home, typically have one.
Edited by OnTheOneRoad - 21 Nov 2019 at 9:34am |
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No thank you Turkish......I'm sweet enough
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