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What would you do with VAR

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Poll Question: What would you do with VAR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Works well in MLS from what I have seen of it.  Plus the referee is of a higher standard that the goons in the monitor room.  He couldn't be any worse anyway!!
 
Is it not actual Premier League referee's who are in the monitor rooms?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamie2905 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

 I don't understand why people think that having the ref look at a pitch side monitor would do much to help the situation in the PL. If both the referee and the VAR are of an appalling standard, which they generally are, most decisions they made are just guesswork. Tv monitor pitch side or not.

No, the issue is that they are not at the same appalling standard. The VAR in ARSvCRY is an Aussie who has referee'd a grand total of 12 league games. 
He shouldn't be choosing whether a team like Arsenal get 3 points or 1, especially considering CL football is on the line (Arsenal have missed out on CL football by 1 point in 2 of the last 3 seasons).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by jamie2905 jamie2905 wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

 I don't understand why people think that having the ref look at a pitch side monitor would do much to help the situation in the PL. If both the referee and the VAR are of an appalling standard, which they generally are, most decisions they made are just guesswork. Tv monitor pitch side or not.

No, the issue is that they are not at the same appalling standard. The VAR in ARSvCRY is an Aussie who has referee'd a grand total of 12 league games. 
He shouldn't be choosing whether a team like Arsenal get 3 points or 1, especially considering CL football is on the line (Arsenal have missed out on CL football by 1 point in 2 of the last 3 seasons).

Which I've pointed to numerous times before. You have a situation in the PL where the referees have been appalling for a number of years now. So they bring in VAR. Who did people think would be operating the VAR system when it came in?. The buffoons considered a poorer standard than even those appalling PL refs was always the answer. It was never going to end well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 2:00pm
Mike up the refs and have the big screens show the replays, as the ref watches them. Then we'll see how the referees are applying the laws and we'll know why they are making their decisions. That's only right.

Secondly, on offside, use two frames for the pass: the one immediately before the pass is released and the one after. That way you can say for sure if the player was offside or not; the present system is not working. If the attacker is offside in both frames, it's offside. If he is only offside in one (whether the first or the second, as can happen if the attacker is coming back towards the ball in the buildup) then he is onside. The current system is permitting incorrect decisions because of the inaccuracy of the cameras. Accompany this with slightly more permissive assistant refereeing, where they only flag if they are sure, and it should work. It will only take a couple more seconds per decision to clarify if the player is on or off but, more importantly, it will be right.

It can be fixed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamie2905 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Mike up the refs and have the big screens show the replays, as the ref watches them. Then we'll see how the referees are applying the laws and we'll know why they are making their decisions. That's only right.

Secondly, on offside, use two frames for the pass: the one immediately before the pass is released and the one after. That way you can say for sure if the player was offside or not; the present system is not working. If the attacker is offside in both frames, it's offside. If he is only offside in one (whether the first or the second, as can happen if the attacker is coming back towards the ball in the buildup) then he is onside. The current system is permitting incorrect decisions because of the inaccuracy of the cameras. Accompany this with slightly more permissive assistant refereeing, where they only flag if they are sure, and it should work. It will only take a couple more seconds per decision to clarify if the player is on or off but, more importantly, it will be right.

It can be fixed.

Agree with the first point but not the second, the technology isn't good enough yet because of the frame rate.

They can't use a technology for offside if that technology cannot keep up with the play. The frame rate is 50 fps, nowhere near good enough for the pace of a Sunday league game, never mind the PL. For a point of reference, Hawkeye, in other sports, runs at 340 fps. 

I don't know what the allternative should be, maybe VAR should be used to just assist the ref for offside, and if it is too close, ie he cannot tell if it is offside, then he gives the benefit to the attacker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Hoskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 2:12pm
How many correct decisions has VAR made compared to ones that are wrong? This is the simple reason why it comes in and works and will stay. 

Letting the crowd know what the f**k is going on would be a big improvement. It reminds when watching Ireland games and UEFA don't let the big screens show certain replays of incidents in case we riot over an offside or bad foul. Drives me nuts and VAR decisions would be way worse to experience
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 2:14pm
That's my point: if you're onside in both frames, then you're definitely onside; if you're offside in both frames, you're definitely offside. VAR works for that much and the pictures do show when the ball is played. I think we actually agree, based on your last sentence.

If you're on in one frame and off in the next (or previous, as the case may be), that's where the issue is. I'd say allow the benefit to the attacker and call it onside. I can't say leave it with the on field decision, because they are currently instructed not to flag unless sure. VAR in that scenario cannot show that the attacker was definitely offside so, unless that is the case, the benefit should go to the attacker. The problem at the minute is the frame selection: use the before and after frame and you don't have the same problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamie2905 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 2:18pm
Yep think we're pretty much agreed, ring JD there and he will sort it all out then Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

That's my point: if you're onside in both frames, then you're definitely onside; if you're offside in both frames, you're definitely offside. VAR works for that much and the pictures do show when the ball is played. I think we actually agree, based on your last sentence.

If you're on in one frame and off in the next (or previous, as the case may be), that's where the issue is. I'd say allow the benefit to the attacker and call it onside. I can't say leave it with the on field decision, because they are currently instructed not to flag unless sure. VAR in that scenario cannot show that the attacker was definitely offside so, unless that is the case, the benefit should go to the attacker. The problem at the minute is the frame selection: use the before and after frame and you don't have the same problem.

Or why not look at one frame and if it’s not clear and obvious then give the benefit to the attacker.

My problem is they are looking a very marginal offsides - down to cm’s 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 3:16pm
Because then you are back to square one. You need the first frame where the ball has left the foot (or other body part) of the player playing the ball & the frame before it. You need to select the frame: which one? If you select both, you have better data to make the decision.

You don't make good decisions with less information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 5:23pm
How in the name of God have they gotten to a place in the PL where even the offside decisions can be disputed. A league awash with money and the infrastructure and technology in place isn't up to scratch.

This is all bog standard stuff that surely they would know before a ball is kicked under VAR. If they do not have the camera capabilities to judge the exact offside line, then admit it. Stop claiming that at least the offsides are 100 percent spot on when clearly they can't be.

They need to go back to the very start and rethink the entire VAR system.


Edited by Hans Moleman - 28 Oct 2019 at 5:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChesterCopperpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2019 at 11:22am
Get rid of it. Proves that it's still not getting the calls right and has taken away from the debates down the pub.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2019 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by jamie2905 jamie2905 wrote:

[The VAR in ARSvCRY is an Aussie who has referee'd a grand total of 12 league games. 
He shouldn't be choosing whether a team like Arsenal get 3 points or 1, especially considering CL football is on the line (Arsenal have missed out on CL football by 1 point in 2 of the last 3 seasons)

That in itself has nothing to do with VAR. 

Amount of experience should make no difference. One of the most experienced referees in England, failed to spot a handball in Newcastle v Watford and rule a goal out. Another ref with 20 years experience, thought the second City goal against Villa was valid. While the head of PGMOL thinks that keepers don't have to stay on their line, and pitchside monitors are not
required. 

You dont need to ref 500 games, to sit in a VAR hub and advise a referee that you need to look at a monitor to make a major decision. The resources are there to help referees, and they should be used.

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Mike up the refs and have the big screens show the replays, as the ref watches them. Then we'll see how the referees are applying the laws and we'll know why they are making their decisions. That's only right.

It can be fixed.

That cannot happen before the law is changed by IFAB, and we have to wait until June 1 at the earliest for that. In the meantime, broadcasters can put microphones in the ref review area that can pick up what a ref is saying when he watches a screen, as happened in the Copa America. There's nothing to stop that. They just have to look at the monitor, which of course they won't do in England.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2019 at 7:34pm
Tis good to see you know of IFAB these days Clap considering you've been rambling about VAR for so long, it's good that you understand they exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2019 at 8:10pm
VAR in the Seria A this evening LOL Napoli player is rugby tackled in the box, Napoli players appeal for pen, ref waves play on & Atalanta go up the other end & score. VAR review the lot and let the Atalanta goal stand. Ancelotti and his assistant both sent off, Insigne & someone else booked. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2019 at 1:36am
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

VAR in the Seria A this evening LOL Napoli player is rugby tackled in the box, Napoli players appeal for pen, ref waves play on & Atalanta go up the other end & score. VAR review the lot and let the Atalanta goal stand. Ancelotti and his assistant both sent off, Insigne & someone else booked. 


Nope, it works perfectly outside of the PL sure LOL it is an absolute nonsense of a system. In what world is that not a penalty for Llorrente LOL that attempt at a tackle was up there with Guendouzi from last weekend.

Where are Dermot Gallagher or Peter Walton when you need them eh "some would give a penalty for that, some would say no penalty. It's all subjective really, isn't it?"

The entire system is a complete cod.





Edited by Hans Moleman - 31 Oct 2019 at 2:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2019 at 7:53am
That’s hilarious! This is exactly what football deserves!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamie2905 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2019 at 9:42am
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Originally posted by jamie2905 jamie2905 wrote:

[The VAR in ARSvCRY is an Aussie who has referee'd a grand total of 12 league games. 
He shouldn't be choosing whether a team like Arsenal get 3 points or 1, especially considering CL football is on the line (Arsenal have missed out on CL football by 1 point in 2 of the last 3 seasons)

That in itself has nothing to do with VAR. 

Amount of experience should make no difference. One of the most experienced referees in England, failed to spot a handball in Newcastle v Watford and rule a goal out. Another ref with 20 years experience, thought the second City goal against Villa was valid. While the head of PGMOL thinks that keepers don't have to stay on their line, and pitchside monitors are not
required. 

You dont need to ref 500 games, to sit in a VAR hub and advise a referee that you need to look at a monitor to make a major decision. The resources are there to help referees, and they should be used.

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Mike up the refs and have the big screens show the replays, as the ref watches them. Then we'll see how the referees are applying the laws and we'll know why they are making their decisions. That's only right.

It can be fixed.

That cannot happen before the law is changed by IFAB, and we have to wait until June 1 at the earliest for that. In the meantime, broadcasters can put microphones in the ref review area that can pick up what a ref is saying when he watches a screen, as happened in the Copa America. There's nothing to stop that. They just have to look at the monitor, which of course they won't do in England.

You are not provided any solutions, just stating problems. Of course experience matters.

The point is that a man who is barely a referee at all MADE the decision. He should be referring the decision to the ref, like we seen in the world cup. The ref should get a word in his ear "You need to check this", then proceeds to check it on the monitor.
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