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pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I can understand H2H's point here though. In all likelihood it is Russia, but are we really going to start a whole new series of international tensions without any proof? My own support and sympathy for Corbyn aside, I fail to see what was wrong with what he, or the French for that matter, said. Leaving the jingoism and sabre-rattling aside it seems a fairly logical position.
May has plenty to gain from leading an international stand against Russia too.

I actually think that Corbyn's job has been made more difficult by Seumas Milne's intervention, which has further split the party position. Corbyn is not wrong in suggesting that the substance should be passed. However, it is not a leap to join in the condemnation, and it would be safe for him to do so. The New Statesmen had something which suggested that this might be a hedged bet, which may backfire when Russian involvement is confirmed, as it will be manna from heaven for the Tories to criticise his efforts at managing a major foreign affairs issue. However, his statement was compromised by Milne who has gone steps further, and has yet to be reigned in.
Milne does need to be reigned in, he has been of no help to anybody here, himself most of all, but the attack was condemned by Corbyn. I'm not sure what condemning Putin or Russia will do when there isn't cast-iron proof.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Milne does need to be reigned in, he has been of no help to anybody here, himself most of all, but the attack was condemned by Corbyn. I'm not sure what condemning Putin or Russia will do when there isn't cast-iron proof.


Corbyn went further this afternoon in relation to the attack, and mentioned evidence pointing towards Russia. The scope for potential alternatives is becoming more and more limited as the day goes forward.
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An interesting take from a former British ambassador.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Not sure what to make of anything anymore.
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

An interesting take from a former British ambassador.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Not sure what to make of anything anymore.

There's a thread on Twitter where yer man Craig Murray got absolutely destroyed.

https://twitter.com/deadlyvices/status/974033609639321600
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Roy Keane
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Murray is not a chemist and a read of his precedence would suggest that he has form for throwing suggestions, notably about the Scottish Referendum and Hillary's email, which he has claimed had nothing to do with the Russians.



Edited by Het-field - 15 Mar 2018 at 6:38pm
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

An interesting take from a former British ambassador.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Not sure what to make of anything anymore.

There's a thread on Twitter where yer man Craig Murray got absolutely destroyed.




Jaysus what a knob. That lad has serious anger management issues.

OK, lets say the Russians made it which is extremely likely. What his thread doesn't prove is whether the Russian state deployed it. How do we know this wasn't stolen, sold or given to other actors by another means? Everything points to Russia but doubts remain. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736

As I said above I don't know what to make of anything anymore.
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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Roy Keane
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What I find interesting in reading the INTERNET is that there's a very strong crossover between the type of people who are fanatically anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim and people who admire Putin and Russia. Certainly Putin is a big hero of the alt-right.

I think they see Russia as the sort of deeply conservative, white, racist, anti-gay, authoritarian state which they imagine during their wet dreams. Of course they wouldn't last a wet day there if they actually had to live there. 

Of course the standard response of the reactionary right to any sort of possible Islamist terror incident is to point the blame at Muslims in general as soon as they hear about it, and generally without any evidence too. That's followed up with broad brush vilification of the "left" and "liberals". 

The reactionary right appear to have a much different standard of proof for Russian spy attacks - and I'm not saying proof is a bad thing, quite the opposite - I'm pointing out the hilarious double standard the reactionary right have compared to their automatic reflex broad brush vilification of Muslims any time there's any sort of attack in the west.

For them, one sort of attack requires no proof at all to decide who to blame. For the other, there is never any proof of who is to blame that will be acceptable. 





Edited by sid waddell - 15 Mar 2018 at 6:50pm
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

What I find interesting in reading the INTERNET is that there's a very strong crossover between the type of people who are fanatically anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim and people who admire Putin and Russia. Certainly Putin is a big hero of the alt-right.

I think they see Russia as the sort of deeply conservative, white, racist, anti-gay, authoritarian state which they imagine during their wet dreams. Of course they wouldn't last a wet day there if they actually had to live there. 

Of course the standard response of the reactionary right to any sort of possible Islamist terror incident is to point the blame at Muslims in general as soon as they hear about it, and generally without any evidence too. That's followed up with broad brush vilification of the "left" and "liberals". 

The reactionary right appear to have a much different standard of proof for Russian spy attacks - and I'm not saying proof is a bad thing, quite the opposite - I'm pointing out the hilarious double standard the reactionary right have compared to their automatic reflex broad brush vilification of Muslims any time there's any sort of attack in the west.





Its an interesting manifestation of the horse shoe theory. A similar read of further left sources will see wide ranging attempts to muddy the water as to culpability in this situation. Any small anomaly has been jumped on, the victim has been insulted, and the British state has been the subject of huge whataboutery.

I suspect the reactionary right see Putin as the type of leader they would like, while elements of the far left demonstrate that old alliances and friendships die hard, in spite of contemporary Russia being nothing like the state they would wish to have.
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Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

An interesting take from a former British ambassador.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Not sure what to make of anything anymore.

There's a thread on Twitter where yer man Craig Murray got absolutely destroyed.




Jaysus what a knob. That lad has serious anger management issues.

OK, lets say the Russians made it which is extremely likely. What his thread doesn't prove is whether the Russian state deployed it. How do we know this wasn't stolen, sold or given to other actors by another means? Everything points to Russia but doubts remain. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736

As I said above I don't know what to make of anything anymore.



What a successful demagogue does is to tell the most obvious lies imaginable and say it's the truth. 

If you can tell the biggest lies and get away with it, you can lie about anything. 

Then, at least for enough people whose support is needed to sustain that demagogue, people stop believing in truth as a concept, and for them, truth ceases to mean anything.

That's what Trump does and that's what Putin does.

After World War II, it was believed that never again could a demagogue fool so many people in the way Hitler had done. 

That was a very mistaken belief, and now the INTERNET has made it easier than ever before to fool people.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

What I find interesting in reading the INTERNET is that there's a very strong crossover between the type of people who are fanatically anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim and people who admire Putin and Russia. Certainly Putin is a big hero of the alt-right.

I think they see Russia as the sort of deeply conservative, white, racist, anti-gay, authoritarian state which they imagine during their wet dreams. Of course they wouldn't last a wet day there if they actually had to live there. 

Of course the standard response of the reactionary right to any sort of possible Islamist terror incident is to point the blame at Muslims in general as soon as they hear about it, and generally without any evidence too. That's followed up with broad brush vilification of the "left" and "liberals". 

The reactionary right appear to have a much different standard of proof for Russian spy attacks - and I'm not saying proof is a bad thing, quite the opposite - I'm pointing out the hilarious double standard the reactionary right have compared to their automatic reflex broad brush vilification of Muslims any time there's any sort of attack in the west.





Its an interesting manifestation of the horse shoe theory. A similar read of further left sources will see wide ranging attempts to muddy the water as to culpability in this situation. Any small anomaly has been jumped on, the victim has been insulted, and the British state has been the subject of huge whataboutery.

I suspect the reactionary right see Putin as the type of leader they would like, while elements of the far left demonstrate that old alliances and friendships die hard, in spite of contemporary Russia being nothing like the state they would wish to have.

Oh yeah, for definite there's an element of left-wing thought that sees Putin as a grand fella too, I wouldn't deny that. Whataboutery is a huge element of this. 
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:


Oh yeah, for definite there's an element of left-wing thought that sees Putin as a grand fella too, I wouldn't deny that. Whataboutery is a huge element of this. 


I struggle to figure out why anybody (other than those who benefit from the status quo) could possibly have a positive view on the contemporary Russian state. Over the last ten years or so I have noticed an incremental creeping of favouritism from people who should under no circumstances have anything favourable to say about it.

This incident has had a tinge of anti-Westernism and anti-government paranoia, which I had suspected was limited to a very specific set of events.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:


Oh yeah, for definite there's an element of left-wing thought that sees Putin as a grand fella too, I wouldn't deny that. Whataboutery is a huge element of this. 


I struggle to figure out why anybody (other than those who benefit from the status quo) could possibly have a positive view on the contemporary Russian state. Over the last ten years or so I have noticed an incremental creeping of favouritism from people who should under no circumstances have anything favourable to say about it.

This incident has had a tinge of anti-Westernism and anti-government paranoia, which I had suspected was limited to a very specific set of events.

I would say the reactionary right admiration for Putin goes back to what I said earlier about them seeing him as a defender of whiteness and social conservatism.

The Iraq War is probably the key factor in terms of left admiration for him. 

I think was Putin was correct on that and the neo-conservatives were insane, but in his case it proved to be a case of a stopped clock being right.

Putin is as big an imperialist as anybody, as his actions since then show. 

Also, there is an apparently credible theory that shortly after becoming Prime Minister in 1999, he was behind the apartment bombings that gave Russia the excuse to wage a full scale war in Chechnya and establish him as a "strong leader" in waiting. 

I can't claim to know whether that is actually true, but I sure wouldn't put it past him.
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Roy Keane
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Russia is no bastion of diversity. Even if you were to break it down to the horrific behaviour of football fans. But the country has become a hotbed of social conservativism and restriction. There should only be a tiny number of people who are apologists for the regime, let alone actual supporters
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:


Oh yeah, for definite there's an element of left-wing thought that sees Putin as a grand fella too, I wouldn't deny that. Whataboutery is a huge element of this. 


I struggle to figure out why anybody (other than those who benefit from the status quo) could possibly have a positive view on the contemporary Russian state. Over the last ten years or so I have noticed an incremental creeping of favouritism from people who should under no circumstances have anything favourable to say about it.

This incident has had a tinge of anti-Westernism and anti-government paranoia, which I had suspected was limited to a very specific set of events.


I would say the reactionary right admiration for Putin goes back to what I said earlier about them seeing him as a defender of whiteness and social conservatism.

The Iraq War is probably the key factor in terms of left admiration for him. 

I think was Putin was correct on that and the neo-conservatives were insane, but in his case it proved to be a case of a stopped clock being right.

Putin is as big an imperialist as anybody, as his actions since then show. 

Also, there is an apparently credible theory that shortly after becoming Prime Minister in 1999, he was behind the apartment bombings that gave Russia the excuse to wage a full scale war in Chechnya and establish him as a "strong leader" in waiting. 

I can't claim to know whether that is actually true, but I sure wouldn't put it past him.




With regards the bombing I came across this fascinating US Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Democratic staff report) report a few weeks back. Appendix A details the bombing.

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FinalRR.pdf
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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Roy Keane
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Fooking hell. 

That's one serious foot in mouth giveaway job by the Speaker of the Duma...


Edited by sid waddell - 15 Mar 2018 at 11:43pm
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Roy Keane
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Ya tis mad stuff. The whole report is engrossing.
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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Roy Keane
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I see Yesterday the UK, France, USA and Germany issued a joint statement condemning an "assault on UK sovereignty". A very united front has been show in this situation, and with EU backing it has become a very united front.m

I also see Chris Williamson MP is retweeting Craig Murray. At times like these elements of the LP really can't help themselves.



Edited by Het-field - 16 Mar 2018 at 10:42am
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while it is good to be sceptical at times I think on the balance of probability that it was Russia as they frankly don't give a monkeys about other peoples opinion and it was essentially a public warning to double agents or potential double agents that they don't ever forget
 
they could easily have got rid of him quietly
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