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    Posted: 18 Oct 2020 at 12:41am
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

but to be honest I would prefer hoof ball and results a la MON 2015-16 rather than good football and nothing to show for it. I hope we can get the balance right.

What did we get to show for it in those years?

2015:
Ireland 1-1 Poland
Ireland 1-1 Scotland
Poland 2-1 Ireland
Bosnia 1-1 Ireland

2016:
Ireland 1-2 Belarussia
Ireland 0-3 Belgium
Serbia 2-2 Ireland

Or even 2017:
Ireland 0-0 Wales (v 10 men) 
Ireland 0-1 Iceland
Ireland 1-1 Austria
Georgia 1-1 Ireland
Ireland 0-1 Serbia (v 10 men) 
Denmark 0-0 Ireland
Ireland v Denmark 2nd Leg. 

Not too many wins for the Hoofball Henrys from that lot. I think I'll pass on 2018.

MON won 1 of his first 9 games in charge, but kept his job for 5 years over 3 campaigns. One thing he was not short of, was time. I think Kenny needs rather longer than 5 games to put a long term strategy in place, and front foot tactics more advanced than planting the ball on Duffy's head in the last 10 minutes. We need root and branch reform of how we play, not another quick fix who fixes nothing at all. 

Ridiculous post. Selective smattering of results. Leaving out the good results.
Could do the same for Alex Ferguson or Klopp or from Charlton's time in charge of Ireland. 
Utter dross.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

but to be honest I would prefer hoof ball and results a la MON 2015-16 rather than good football and nothing to show for it. I hope we can get the balance right.

What did we get to show for it in those years?

2015:
Ireland 1-1 Poland
Ireland 1-1 Scotland
Poland 2-1 Ireland
Bosnia 1-1 Ireland

2016:
Ireland 1-2 Belarussia
Ireland 0-3 Belgium
Serbia 2-2 Ireland

Or even 2017:
Ireland 0-0 Wales (v 10 men) 
Ireland 0-1 Iceland
Ireland 1-1 Austria
Georgia 1-1 Ireland
Ireland 0-1 Serbia (v 10 men) 
Denmark 0-0 Ireland
Ireland v Denmark 2nd Leg. 

Not too many wins for the Hoofball Henrys from that lot. I think I'll pass on 2018.

MON won 1 of his first 9 games in charge, but kept his job for 5 years over 3 campaigns. One thing he was not short of, was time. I think Kenny needs rather longer than 5 games to put a long term strategy in place, and front foot tactics more advanced than planting the ball on Duffy's head in the last 10 minutes. We need root and branch reform of how we play, not another quick fix who fixes nothing at all. 

I’m for Kenny getting time but saying O’Neill was a failure is nonsense, we hadn’t beat a higher ranked team competitively before him for 14 years. He beat 5, including the world champions. Hadn’t beaten a higher ranked team away in 26 +years, he done it twice in his stint. Got us to the last 16 of the euros and we gave a good account of ourselves and went out with pride. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dots1982 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

Those pass completion stats are incredible and I don't give a f**k which third of the pitch they were in

I support Kenny but that is a disaster of an opinion. Thankfully Kenny will very much care where the passes actually get us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnSwift Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

I don't think any previous Ireland manager has had to cope with the level of disruption Kenny had over these 3 games. The number of withdrawals of key players was unprecedented and even in tournament football, having 3 games in 6 days is very uncommon.

Despite all of the above, and the belief instilled in many by previous managers that we don't have the players to play anything other than hoofball, Kenny has turned us in to a passing team. Those pass completion stats are incredible and I don't give a f**k which third of the pitch they were in. Do you think all of Spain's passes were in the final third? Give me a break.

Kenny is a breath of fresh air. Once we have a full squad to pick from the results will come and when the 21s qualify for the Euros, we'll have something to get excited about next summer as we watch the next generation on the big stage. 

100% agree. Kenny is a breath of fresh air.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 12:19pm
I don't think any previous Ireland manager has had to cope with the level of disruption Kenny had over these 3 games. The number of withdrawals of key players was unprecedented and even in tournament football, having 3 games in 6 days is very uncommon.

Despite all of the above, and the belief instilled in many by previous managers that we don't have the players to play anything other than hoofball, Kenny has turned us in to a passing team. Those pass completion stats are incredible and I don't give a f**k which third of the pitch they were in. Do you think all of Spain's passes were in the final third? Give me a break.

Kenny is a breath of fresh air. Once we have a full squad to pick from the results will come and when the 21s qualify for the Euros, we'll have something to get excited about next summer as we watch the next generation on the big stage. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PanteirA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Give Kenny the qualifiers without doubt. Kenny got the job mainly on his successes at Dundalk. It must be said that in the latter years there, he had the biggest budget and best players in the league as evidenced by so much success.He won't have the best players at international level and will have to work with what he has. While his earlier successes at Dundalk merit more credit, after all he assembled a good team from a group of LOI journeyman on a shoestring budget. He was able to coax improved performances from the players he had. In the games for Ireland to date we can see he is trying to establish a structure and tactical formation. The key question is can he improve the players to a degree to make his systems deliver winning matches. How long will the players stay in board with Kenny if we keep losing to teams like Finland ?
The players will give Kenny the time he deserves, the fans or media is another story. In allowing them to play constructive football, he has already shown more belief in their abilities than previous managers. The players will recognise this and we will see the fruition of this in the years ahead we hope. I really don't think the players are any threat to Kenny as Ireland manager
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dots1982 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 8:41pm
unfortunately in the Kenny era the problem isn’t just winning, its worst than that.  We don’t score.

So let’s just move on from somehow trying to favourly compare this era to martin O’Neill’s or mick’s era.

Let’s just concentrate on the now. We are obsessed with previous managers and what they say and do. 

It’s like footballing PTSB.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 8:29pm
It's frightening when you read a Planning post for amusement and find yourself agreeing with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

but to be honest I would prefer hoof ball and results a la MON 2015-16 rather than good football and nothing to show for it. I hope we can get the balance right.

What did we get to show for it in those years?

2015:
Ireland 1-1 Poland
Ireland 1-1 Scotland
Poland 2-1 Ireland
Bosnia 1-1 Ireland

2016:
Ireland 1-2 Belarussia
Ireland 0-3 Belgium
Serbia 2-2 Ireland

Or even 2017:
Ireland 0-0 Wales (v 10 men) 
Ireland 0-1 Iceland
Ireland 1-1 Austria
Georgia 1-1 Ireland
Ireland 0-1 Serbia (v 10 men) 
Denmark 0-0 Ireland
Ireland v Denmark 2nd Leg. 

Not too many wins for the Hoofball Henrys from that lot. I think I'll pass on 2018.

MON won 1 of his first 9 games in charge, but kept his job for 5 years over 3 campaigns. One thing he was not short of, was time. I think Kenny needs rather longer than 5 games to put a long term strategy in place, and front foot tactics more advanced than planting the ball on Duffy's head in the last 10 minutes. We need root and branch reform of how we play, not another quick fix who fixes nothing at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 3:10pm
Give Kenny the qualifiers without doubt. Kenny got the job mainly on his successes at Dundalk. It must be said that in the latter years there, he had the biggest budget and best players in the league as evidenced by so much success.He won't have the best players at international level and will have to work with what he has. While his earlier successes at Dundalk merit more credit, after all he assembled a good team from a group of LOI journeyman on a shoestring budget. He was able to coax improved performances from the players he had. In the games for Ireland to date we can see he is trying to establish a structure and tactical formation. The key question is can he improve the players to a degree to make his systems deliver winning matches. How long will the players stay in board with Kenny if we keep losing to teams like Finland ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Claret Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:

Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.


The frustrating part of this point for me is that had Hourihane or Browne put away their chances against Slovakia, nobody would be labouring this point. We have created chances with this style of play, we need to finish them. 
 
You are so right NP as how many times have you heard someone saying fine margins , close to every weekend . The goal at Villa Park when playing Sheff Utd that was a goal and it kept Villa up and look at them at the moment .
But if you keep falling on the wrong side of the line offten enough you lose your job .
Football is about results , now i know lots on this thread think otherwise but that's what it comes down to .
You are only as good as your last match also .

I agree with that as well in fairness, but I think it's only fair to give Kenny a fair crack at this before calling for his head. It seems to me the reactions to the last five games are way way OTT versus what has been happening on the pitch. If we get to this time next year and still no goals or wins then I'll be very worried, but I don't think that is likely.
 
 As we all know the FAI are broke so he is save enough .
Aagin as you know in todays game lose 3 game and the fans want change , now in the case of Watford that idea go's out the window .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notpropaganda73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:

Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.


The frustrating part of this point for me is that had Hourihane or Browne put away their chances against Slovakia, nobody would be labouring this point. We have created chances with this style of play, we need to finish them. 
 
You are so right NP as how many times have you heard someone saying fine margins , close to every weekend . The goal at Villa Park when playing Sheff Utd that was a goal and it kept Villa up and look at them at the moment .
But if you keep falling on the wrong side of the line offten enough you lose your job .
Football is about results , now i know lots on this thread think otherwise but that's what it comes down to .
You are only as good as your last match also .

I agree with that as well in fairness, but I think it's only fair to give Kenny a fair crack at this before calling for his head. It seems to me the reactions to the last five games are way way OTT versus what has been happening on the pitch. If we get to this time next year and still no goals or wins then I'll be very worried, but I don't think that is likely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Claret Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 11:29am
Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.


The frustrating part of this point for me is that had Hourihane or Browne put away their chances against Slovakia, nobody would be labouring this point. We have created chances with this style of play, we need to finish them. 
 
You are so right NP as how many times have you heard someone saying fine margins , close to every weekend . The goal at Villa Park when playing Sheff Utd that was a goal and it kept Villa up and look at them at the moment .
But if you keep falling on the wrong side of the line offten enough you lose your job .
Football is about results , now i know lots on this thread think otherwise but that's what it comes down to .
You are only as good as your last match also .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notpropaganda73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.


The frustrating part of this point for me is that had Hourihane or Browne put away their chances against Slovakia, nobody would be labouring this point. We have created chances with this style of play, we need to finish them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notpropaganda73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Have we ever had a period as fans where there aren't some cohort just moaning all the f**king time no matter what is happening on or off the pitch. Christ the night

I'm convinced some folks can't remember what happened last week never mind what was happening under Mick or MON. "This won't work", well the other way wasn't f**king working either. I've actually enjoyed the last three games apart from the results, it's nice to get excited as your players play a few simple one-twos to create some space and get a shot off now and again instead of just hoofing things and hoping we win a freekick or corner. I think there's been an obvious improvement especially from the first Finland game which was very poor.

Give Kenny the WC qualifying campaign and let's see how we go. No doubt there is an army who says we "can't afford to lose a qualifying campaign" or some other nonsense, well f**king news flash we already lost the first Nations League and the Euro 2020 qualifying campaign because of our last two managers so I'm willing to give this fella a go with the youngsters.

Knight was only on briefly but I liked the look of him

I would agree with this somewhat but by the same token zero goals and zero wins in the first 5 games is not great. It has been good to see us actually play some decent stuff but to be honest I would prefer hoof ball and results a la MON 2015-16 rather than good football and nothing to show for it. I hope we can get the balance right.

I 100% agree with you, I want to see goals and results but I can see that there is a change of style happening so I'm not expecting things to happen overnight. What I get frustrated with is a run of poor results and people are saying to sack it all off, when jesus christ we have played horrible stuff for a long time and no results to show for that either. At least *try* something different and give it a chance. 

The fact you have to go back 4/5 years for the last time we had the right balance of sh*te football/good results is an indicator that maybe give the good football/bad results a little bit of time to see if those results can improve. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Providing 2 examples of possession football doesn't translate to a win, villa vs Liverpool and man utd vs Tottenham is a very poor analysis.

Nor did your examples prove anything in themselves either, which was my point.

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.

Which was my next point.

It's like someone boasting that he posseses more books in his library than anyone else.

It means nothing if he hasn't read them all, never mind understood them.

And in any case, ROI's possession stats under SK haven't been anything to write home about, so far at least.





Edited by Territorial - 15 Oct 2020 at 6:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by Bru Bru wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Correct, but a team who dominates the ball, more often than not, will increase their chances of winning. There will always be exceptions to that but they are in the minority of cases.

We had a team who were chronically bad at keeping the ball and it made us ridiculously predictable (down to management orders, I should add). Any improvement in this regard is welcome.
True, but do ROI have the players who can dominate possession?

Last night you had 47% possession against a moderate team (ranked 56), 52% in Dublin. And barring a pretty awful Bulgaria, your other games have been similar.

Of course it will take time for SK to transform the team, which probably means waiting for the youngsters to come through. But even assuming the FAI gives him that time, and the players are good enough, the big problem with youngsters is that they can lose heart if they are regularly getting beaten during the necessary transition period.

I always think back to Sammy McIlroy's time in charge of NI. The players all liked him, he was always enthusiastic and tried to play an attacking brand of football, but in the end the players lost confidence in him, then in themselves. And bringing in new/young players (often to replace senior players who'd stopped turning up) made no difference either.

By contrast, even when Michael O'Neill wasn't getting results in his early days, he never "lost the dressing room", primarily because the core of his team stuck with him. The crucial factor being that these were the senior guys like Davis, Evans, McAuley, Brunt and Hughes etc - the younger guys followed their lead.

Sammy McIlroys team would be around 2004/2005 ?? 
Most players now are coached a more technical style of football. 
Young or Old, they want to express themselves and the way you do that is with the ball... 

Sammy McIlroy was a pretty skilful player himself, a striker-turned-midfielder who learned his game during 11 years and 400 games at Old Trafford (the last player Sir Matt Busby signed for them, in fact).

It wasn't his playing style or principles which hampered him, rather the players eventually concluded he simply wasn't up to the task.

Meanwhile, he was succeeded by Lawrie Sanchez, who significantly improved the team using petty much the same players, but with a style of play which was more Jack Charlton than Pep Guardiola!

Key to this transformation was David Healy, who as another Man U graduate, was a pretty technical player himself. Healy played all through the record-breaking goal drought under McIlroy (1,298 minutes!), but soon started breaking scoring records of the welcome sort under Sanchez.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Correct, but a team who dominates the ball, more often than not, will increase their chances of winning. There will always be exceptions to that but they are in the minority of cases.

We had a team who were chronically bad at keeping the ball and it made us ridiculously predictable (down to management orders, I should add). Any improvement in this regard is welcome.
True, but do ROI have the players who can dominate possession?

Last night you had 47% possession against a moderate team (ranked 56), 52% in Dublin. And barring a pretty awful Bulgaria, your other games have been similar.

Of course it will take time for SK to transform the team, which probably means waiting for the youngsters to come through. But even assuming the FAI gives him that time, and the players are good enough, the big problem with youngsters is that they can lose heart if they are regularly getting beaten during the necessary transition period.

I always think back to Sammy McIlroy's time in charge of NI. The players all liked him, he was always enthusiastic and tried to play an attacking brand of football, but in the end the players lost confidence in him, then in themselves. And bringing in new/young players (often to replace senior players who'd stopped turning up) made no difference either.

By contrast, even when Michael O'Neill wasn't getting results in his early days, he never "lost the dressing room", primarily because the core of his team stuck with him. The crucial factor being that these were the senior guys like Davis, Evans, McAuley, Brunt and Hughes etc - the younger guys followed their lead.

Sammy McIlroys team would be around 2004/2005 ?? 
Most players now are coached a more technical style of football. 
Young or Old, they want to express themselves and the way you do that is with the ball... 
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