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Underage squads: Best Prospects

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Kevin Kilbane
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    Posted: 20 May 2022 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Results against Luxembourg won't count so there's six points to knock off Sweden's total and four off ours.

That puts them on 11pts and us on 9pts. 3pts would be enough as long as Sweden don't beat Italy. Tiebreakers are determined on head to head and we've already beaten Sweden twice so goal difference won't matter if we both finish level on points.

So if we pick up 6pts in a couple of weeks we'll be on 15pts and if Sweden actually beat Italy they'll be on 14pts so can't get second but could give us a chance to grab first as Italy will be on 14pts when you discard the Luxembourg results.


You had me properly confused for a good long while with that last night. In the end I just went to bed. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 10:21am
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I'm fairly sure that's not right - why would they discard the results against Luxembourg?

Only when it comes to ranking the second placed teams. The results against the sixth placed team in a six-team group are disregarded
If we finish second, and Luxembourg finish bottom, we'll lose four point becuase of the draw in Dudelange, but most other teams will lose six.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 10:21am
Originally posted by Bandwagon Bandwagon wrote:

Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Results against Luxembourg won't count so there's six points to knock off Sweden's total and four off ours.

That puts them on 11pts and us on 9pts. 3pts would be enough as long as Sweden don't beat Italy. Tiebreakers are determined on head to head and we've already beaten Sweden twice so goal difference won't matter if we both finish level on points.

So if we pick up 6pts in a couple of weeks we'll be on 15pts and if Sweden actually beat Italy they'll be on 14pts so can't get second but could give us a chance to grab first as Italy will be on 14pts when you discard the Luxembourg results.


Of course they do!

They only dont count when it comes to determining the best 2nd place team from all 9 groups who will qualify automatically.

Reason being there are some groups with 5 teams and other 6.


So the group table will look as normal with results against 6th placed teams counted to determine who finishes 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc.

And then they rank the second placed teams without the 6th placed teams to determine who gets the one automatic spot remaining and whose in the play offs so is it?

That will teach me to try and work out something at 1am

Because when I read this:
Qualifying group stage: The 53 teams are drawn into nine groups: eight groups of six teams and one group of five teams. Each group is played in home-and-away round-robin format. The nine group winners and the best runners-up (not counting results against the sixth-placed team) qualify directly for the final tournament, while the remaining eight runners-up advance to the play-offs.

Clicked in my head then that results against 6th placed teams are discarded when determining even who finishes 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc for group winners and ranking second placed teams

Edited by J89 - 20 May 2022 at 10:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandwagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 9:44am
Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Results against Luxembourg won't count so there's six points to knock off Sweden's total and four off ours.

That puts them on 11pts and us on 9pts. 3pts would be enough as long as Sweden don't beat Italy. Tiebreakers are determined on head to head and we've already beaten Sweden twice so goal difference won't matter if we both finish level on points.

So if we pick up 6pts in a couple of weeks we'll be on 15pts and if Sweden actually beat Italy they'll be on 14pts so can't get second but could give us a chance to grab first as Italy will be on 14pts when you discard the Luxembourg results.


Of course they do!

They only dont count when it comes to determining the best 2nd place team from all 9 groups who will qualify automatically.

Reason being there are some groups with 5 teams and other 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote belt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 9:20am
Win our first two games and hope for a Italy-Sweden draw. We would have 2nd guaranteed and a free shot at beating Italy for top spot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:04am
I'm fairly sure that's not right - why would they discard the results against Luxembourg?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 12:54am
Results against Luxembourg won't count so there's six points to knock off Sweden's total and four off ours.

That puts them on 11pts and us on 9pts. 3pts would be enough as long as Sweden don't beat Italy. Tiebreakers are determined on head to head and we've already beaten Sweden twice so goal difference won't matter if we both finish level on points.

So if we pick up 6pts in a couple of weeks we'll be on 15pts and if Sweden actually beat Italy they'll be on 14pts so can't get second but could give us a chance to grab first as Italy will be on 14pts when you discard the Luxembourg results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Greenie50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by Fozz Fozz wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with any of your points but I still don't think they will be called up.
Crawford made a point that the players who have gotten this far will carry on.
I'd say Taylor will be called in to cover that spartan midfield.



Oh I know Crawford wants to finish out the campaign with largely the same players, but if Kenny wants to call up a player then there's nothing Crawford can do to stop it.


Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Actually, if we win our two games on the 3rd and 6th won't we have 2nd place guaranteed before we meet Italy.


Depends on other results.

Currently:
Italy -      17pts - [3 to play - Lux, Sweden, & Ireland]
Sweden - 14pts - [2 to play - Lux & Italy]
Ireland -   13pts - [3 to play - Bosnia, Mont, & Italy]

-------
June 2nd - Lux vs Sweden

June 3rd - Ire vs Bos
June 6th - Ire vs Mont  & [Lux vs Italy]

June 9th - Swe vs Italy

June 14th - Italy vs Ire
--------
Expect Italy & Sweden will beat Lux to go to 20pts & 17pts respectively.

Then if we beat Bos & Mont we go to 19pts just needing Italy to beat or draw with Sweden (they drew 1-1 before). But Mont have already beaten us, so that'll be a really tough game.
4pts from Bos/Mont I think would pretty much be game over for us. We'd be on 17pts but behind Swedens far superior GD, still in it but hoping Sweden lose to Italy & then we'd have have to draw with Italy.


Edited by Greenie50 - 19 May 2022 at 7:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 5:33pm
Actually, if we win our two games on the 3rd and 6th won't we have 2nd place guaranteed before we meet Italy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Fozz Fozz wrote:

I can't see any of the 21's being called up to the the seniors this time around.


There's 8 days in-between the 2nd and 3rd games, and if 2nd place is unattainable after the first two games you'd hope some of the lads that will be overage for the U21s next season would hang around to train with the seniors rather than travel to Italy.

They'd get a week training with the seniors which will be more beneficial for them for September and November's window than travelling to Italy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fozz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 4:45pm
I'm not disagreeing with any of your points but I still don't think they will be called up.
Crawford made a point that the players who have gotten this far will carry on.
I'd say Taylor will be called in to cover that spartan midfield.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greenie50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 4:33pm
Festy is nowhere near ready for the senior team. His little issue last time shows a distinct lack of maturity that he'll need to sort out. He's also just very raw as a player, has a lot to work on. Best place for him is the U21s.

Coventry and/or Kilkenny I think are very likely to get called up. The senior options at CM are too thin as it is for a 4 game window. Cullen, Hendrick, Molumby, Hourihane.
Hourihane isn't good enough in the first place and is aging out rapidly.
Hendrick hasn't played since April 5th because of injury.
We don't have a direct backup for Cullen (would be Coventry).
Any injury and/or suspension there and we'll be struggling.

Coventry & Kilkenny I think are very clearly next in to the senior squad midfield (possibly with Taylor). I think it's important we start blooding them now rather than waiting for injuries & suspensions.

U21s have options to replace them - Lee O'Connor, Johansson, Hodge, Phillips, Devoy.


Edited by Greenie50 - 19 May 2022 at 4:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fozz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 3:06pm
I can't see any of the 21's being called up to the the seniors this time around.

Festy would be the obvious one because oddly it seems like Crawford would not start him.  So it seems from what he said from the last camp, and then Festy bailed out so who knows the truth there...

As nailed-on starters, Coventry and Kilkenny will play out this 21's campaign until we are eliminated I'd say.

I agree we should get a bigger group in and I'd have Hodge straight in, along with Cashin, Noss, Adamarola and Springett, in that order.
I'm assuming Burns is already in.

No harm getting some new lads included and used to the setup, even if they are a ways from getting time on the pitch.



Edited by Fozz - 19 May 2022 at 3:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greenie50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Fozz Fozz wrote:

Originally posted by Greenie50 Greenie50 wrote:

...
There'll be a major turnover of the U21s squad after the June games finish. I think only 6 or 7 current names will still be eligible for the next campaign (Ebosele, O'Neill, Odubeko, Ferguson, Phillips, Burns, Oko-flex - & those last 3 haven't played yet).


That's a strong attacking three right there.
When does the next campaign start?
A huge shakeup to that squad as you said.


I've forgotten the Play-Offs, if we make them, would be later this year (Sept/Nov).

I'm just guessing, but I think the next campaign would start next March.


Originally posted by kevin100 kevin100 wrote:

There is no fear of a lack of depth in attacking areas anyways that's for sure. Midfield might be a different proposition next time around alright. Suspect Joe Hodge will be the first choice midfielder if he can stay fit that is. Unless there's someone stand out I am missing.


Yeah, definitely a lot of attacking prospects for the next go around - Ferguson, Odubeko, Kenny, Cannon, Oko-Flex, O'Neill, Moran, Springett, Burns, Gilsennan, Ebosele if he's used in the forward line. Vata & Zefi could potentially be bumped up too but they're the age below.

Might be wrong but I don't see nearly as many names coming through in CM. Hodge definitely the stand out at the moment. Phillips, Henry-Francis, Hill another few.

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Why would a "like for like" replacement be so desired?  U21s by design change personel on a game by game basis. Players generally hit between 5 or 10 caps if they're first team.

Having Springett instead of Whelan offers something different that could be worth having a look at, also he's played as a forward for the Norwich u23s....



Leaving yourself short in any position is undesirable. If another winger/inside forward type is needed I think Oko-Flex would get in as he's been with the U21s already. Crawford also seemed to indicate Springett wouldn't be called up for these games and is one for the next campaign

But as the last squad was only 21 players (for 1 game), and the next window is 3 games I would think there will be 5 or 6 more players added to that. The likes of Cashin & Ebosele for sure. Hopefully Noss, & Johansson. Smallbone if he's fit. Maybe Adaramola as back up for Bagan.
If Coventry or Kilkenny are called up to the seniors maybe Hodge gets in.




Edited by Greenie50 - 19 May 2022 at 2:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevin100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 2:37pm
There is no fear of a lack of depth in attacking areas anyways that's for sure. Midfield might be a different proposition next time around alright. Suspect Joe Hodge will be the first choice midfielder if he can stay fit that is. Unless there's someone stand out I am missing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fozz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Greenie50 Greenie50 wrote:

...
There'll be a major turnover of the U21s squad after the June games finish. I think only 6 or 7 current names will still be eligible for the next campaign (Ebosele, O'Neill, Odubeko, Ferguson, Phillips, Burns, Oko-flex - & those last 3 haven't played yet).


That's a strong attacking three right there.
When does the next campaign start?
A huge shakeup to that squad as you said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greenie50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 2:25pm
All 4 of Ferguson, Kayode, Odubeko & Whelan were called up the the 1 game vs Sweden (Ferguson pulled out), so in a 3 game window there's definitely room for Kenny to be added.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Bandwagon Bandwagon wrote:

Originally posted by kevin100 kevin100 wrote:

Originally posted by Bandwagon Bandwagon wrote:

Big blow for the u21 and Colm Whelan who done his Cruciate.  Looked to be on the move in the summer too.



 


Would this potentially open up a place in the squad for Springett? Gutted Whelan is injured horrible timing for him too. Was about to manufacture a good move for himself to the next level.


Doubt it, you'd want a like for like replacement.

Whelan, Kayode and Odubeko were the 3 strikers in the last squad.

Ferguson was out injured, so you'd expect for him to come back in and the other 2 to remain.

Why would a "like for like" replacement be so desired?  U21s by design change personel on a game by game basis. Players generally hit between 5 or 10 caps if they're first team.

Having Springett instead of Whelan offers something different that could be worth having a look at, also he's played as a forward for the Norwich u23s....


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