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Saipan - Who was right?

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Poll Question: Who was correct in their actions?
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenforever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

name the players who said that to the supporters 

I'm not going to start naming people I had private conversations with but it is true that the players blacked out Roy's face from the team picture on the back of the team bus and also placed a card on his seat RIP

There was a song in the pubs where we were staying sung every night and also by parts of the crowd at games

Keano went mad
Keano had to go home
Not Quinn
Not Stan
Not Mick McCarthy
Keano went mad and had to go home 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 1:39pm
Why can't you name the players GF.  Have any of them contradicted themselves in subsequent media interviews. 

If that is true about the RIP thing, it's bang out of order in my opinion.  But when a group of lads full of testosterone get together common sense and fairness doesn't always prevail .

David Connolly and Ian Harte were rumoured to have had sympathy with Keane and Gary Been. 


Edited by Baldrick - 28 Jun 2018 at 1:40pm
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumcondra 69er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Why can't you name the players GF.  Have any of them contradicted themselves in subsequent media interviews. 

If that is true about the RIP thing, it's bang out of order in my opinion.  But when a group of lads full of testosterone get together common sense and fairness doesn't always prevail .

David Connolly and Ian Harte were rumoured to have had sympathy with Keane and Gary Been. 

The RIP thing is true and has been mentioned in some players' books as far as I'm aware. It was a joke to relieve some of the tension, I wouldn't consider it as big a deal as being named captain for a US tour and not showing up at the airport without telling anyone for example.

Like GF, I'm not going to start naming people on a message board that I had private conversations with. But again, numerous players have said on the record that the facilities in Chiba were exceptional. Some have expressed regret that Keane didn't get to see them. You'd be amazed how many of the general public still think Saipan was the training camp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:05pm
I truly would be interested to know who would side with Keane 16 years after the whole affair.

In 2002 there was a combination of Keane being a worldy, playing with Man United, and the narrative that he dragged us to the finals. Since then, events have overtaken themselves and I feel with objective specs on it's hard to side with Keane.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary McKay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

I truly would be interested to know who would side with Keane 16 years after the whole affair.
In 2002 there was a combination of Keane being a worldy, playing with Man United, and the narrative that he dragged us to the finals. Since then, events have overtaken themselves and I feel with objective specs on it's hard to side with Keane.
Keane was in the wrong initially.
Mick threw jet fuel on the fire when he should have done his job and managed the situation.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cullenswood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:13pm

Conversations players have with random fans in a pub are hardly private, but anyway.

 
I also agree with Het-field.    I was definitely in the pro-Keane camp back in 02, but have changed my whole view on it since then.


Edited by cullenswood - 28 Jun 2018 at 2:13pm
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Keane was in the wrong initially.
Mick threw jet fuel on the fire when he should have done his job and managed the situation.
 

To me that is contingent on whether there remained any good faith between the parties. If not, it was likely to boil over at some point, and that could have been in the days or hours before the Cameroon game, or at another delicate point.

It's easy to injunct McCarthy to manage the situation, when he was the lightning rod for Keane's concerns and frustrations, and there was personal animosity there. It was a very hard situation to manage, especially as Keane had once decided to leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by cullenswood cullenswood wrote:

Conversations players have with random fans in a pub are hardly private, but anyway.

 
I also agree with Het-field.    I was definitely in the pro-Keane camp back in 02, but have changed my whole view on it since then.

Exactly I think lads you are giving too much gravitas to chats in pubs with players . 

Keane's behaviour was unacceptable on many occasions but that doesn't make what the players did regarding the RiP sign or what Mick did regarding making comments about his captain feigning injury  in front of the rest of the players.  A top class manager doesn't do that.  

Players are selfish and none of them would have batted an eyelid if Mick had a quiet word with Roy about his comments in the Irish times.  

That is in no way defending Keane's comments in the papers about his fellow team mates which were far from ideal and were unacceptable.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:32pm
Overall Baldrick would you say Keane was more in the wrong overall or more responsible/to blame for the dire situation between himself and McCarthy? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:45pm
I would say Keane's poor behaviour at times contributed more to the negative situation that transpired.  It was then managed poorly also.  Keane has more questions to answer than Mick . What I don't go along with is the clowns who can't see any negatives from Keane or any negatives for Mick.  Fanboys rather than critical thinkers. 
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumcondra 69er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by cullenswood cullenswood wrote:

Conversations players have with random fans in a pub are hardly private, but anyway.

 
I also agree with Het-field.    I was definitely in the pro-Keane camp back in 02, but have changed my whole view on it since then.

Exactly I think lads you are giving too much gravitas to chats in pubs with players . 

Keane's behaviour was unacceptable on many occasions but that doesn't make what the players did regarding the RiP sign or what Mick did regarding making comments about his captain feigning injury  in front of the rest of the players.  A top class manager doesn't do that.  

Players are selfish and none of them would have batted an eyelid if Mick had a quiet word with Roy about his comments in the Irish times.  

That is in no way defending Keane's comments in the papers about his fellow team mates which were far from ideal and were unacceptable.  

If said player chose his words in a measured manner which clearly implied that they were comments said in confidence then I'm not going to put them up on the internet. In any case, all he said was that it was clear from the off that, for whatever reason, Roy just didn't want to be there. He didn't profess to know why but it was someone who would have been in plenty of squads with him and so would have known him well.

I think you're being way over the top in relation to the RIP sign, it's gallows humour, nothing more. I'd say Keane himself would probably chuckle at that.

There was a narrative carefully created by Keane's people after Saipan and I'm amazed how many bought into it. In relation to his injury, it's a fact that he was git enough to play on the Saturday at home, declared himself unfit to play the second leg the following Thursday yet played for Man U 2 days later against Leicester on the Saturday, in the Champions League v Bayern the next Tuesday and again in the league v Arsenal the following weekend. You honestly think that's not picking and choosing? 

Keane had already walked once before then and I'm pretty sure was already having a go before missing the second leg got brough up. 


Edited by Drumcondra 69er - 28 Jun 2018 at 2:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoneToShowgies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 3:49pm
Roy Keane. A man who walked out when his county needed him most and who has deliberately gone out to hurt other players and wouldn't even apologize for his part in finishing another players carrear. I wouldnt have next or near the Ireland set up. Not the role model I want for my kids. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigPodge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by GoneToShowgies GoneToShowgies wrote:

Roy Keane. A man who walked out when his county needed him most and who has deliberately gone out to hurt other players and wouldn't even apologize for his part in finishing another players carrear. I wouldnt have next or near the Ireland set up. Not the role model I want for my kids. 

He was sent home!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenforever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 4:27pm
There is an alternate way of looking at Mick's management, and say he did well to keep Roy on board as long as he did.

How anyone can even say that Roy's behavior in not turning up for the US Cup and allegedly ringing an unnamed FAI employee is acceptable is living on a different planet. Roy the manager would not accept that. Ireland was never his No 1 priority and still isn't. Personally the sooner he departs the better. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenforever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by BigPodge BigPodge wrote:

Originally posted by GoneToShowgies GoneToShowgies wrote:

Roy Keane. A man who walked out when his county needed him most and who has deliberately gone out to hurt other players and wouldn't even apologize for his part in finishing another players carrear. I wouldnt have next or near the Ireland set up. Not the role model I want for my kids. 

He was sent home!

So why did he not turn up for the play off 2nd leg in Iran, and not even notify Mick he was not travelling?

D69 has listed the gamed he magically was fit for a few days later, and he has a history of the same carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by greenforever greenforever wrote:

There is an alternate way of looking at Mick's management, and say he did well to keep Roy on board as long as he did.

How anyone can even say that Roy's behavior in not turning up for the US Cup and allegedly ringing an unnamed FAI employee is acceptable is living on a different planet. Roy the manager would not accept that. Ireland was never his No 1 priority and still isn't. Personally the sooner he departs the better. 

Straw man argument I never said his behaviour was acceptable.  I have made comments which state that Keane was largely at fault and that mick made a mistake with regard to the meeting. I also said the players shouldn't have put the rip sign.  So to summarise. Keane was largely and fault but others didn't cover themselves in glory either. 

Yourself and drum want to paint a picture of mick and the rest the squad made no mistakes and Keane was 100 per cent fault for everything.  To me that is the more unreasonable argument which sees no good in Keane and no bad in mick.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 4:51pm
Why was calling a team meeting a miatake? Keane had said stuff in the papers and that was festering. Had to be addressed. Sweeping it under the carpet and you would have got a situation like Argentina where the manager is undermined.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote newrynyuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 5:38pm
The meeting was called over Roy's interview with he-who-we-no-longer-mention of The Irish Times where Roy criticised the training facilities (or therein lack of) in Saipan.  In all the years since then, I've yet to see any explanation how that descended into accusations of faking injury. 
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