It's the easy option to call it 50/50 when it clearly isn't. Keane undermined his manager, had a history of indiscipline in the Irish set up going back to Charlton and let his country down on the eve of the world cup. He even stated in his own autobiography that United were his employer and they more it less took precedence over the national team.  The FAI's incompetence or McCarthy not stroking precious Roy's ego enough will ever excuse what Keane did. The other 22 squad of players did the country proud without their captain and best player who sat on his arse in Manchester. 

Keane's world class ability gives him a shield from his loyal followers who believe he  is right no matter what he does or did before. It's a waste of time debating with these people. They're loyal to Keane in the same way the Trumpists are with the Donald. He can do no wrong. 

I’m sure if they could go back in time things would be different.

I hope you're kidding Reddladd 

It's good that there's no option for both being wrong because Keane was primarily the instigator in this no matter how much he or his fans can point to the FAI's incompetence as a backdrop. It was Keane's choice not to play in the 2002 world cup once he undermined his manager. 

Roy shoulda played and then let rip, McCarthy f**ked up badly calling that meeting and saying Keane didn't go to Iran faking injury. 

Lock this thread actually. 

Not excusing McCarthy jumping with two feet in falsely accusing Keane in that instance but Keane's attitude towards the Irish team stunk years before that FW. Keane's commitment to this country should justifiably be questioned and you only need to read his book to see the contempt he had for our friendly games/tournaments out of his own words  not mine. Robbie Keane would give him a lesson in what it means to captain your country. 

Is the only answer 

Keane's newspaper interview where he sl*gged off players publicly was the end point. Saying thats why some of them.are playing where they are is no way for a captain to talk about hia fellow players. Krane had an enormous ego and still does and looked down on everyone else.  Even in Tommy Gormans interview he gets seriosuly offended when its put to him "if the team took you back"  and he replies "take ME back?? What do you mean take ME back" as if its him who should take them back for betraying him.

McCarthy had no choice but to have a clear the air meeting as the players wpuld have read that interview. Keane reacted badly and things had already gone too far when he was accused of faking injury (which he did).  He disappeared and didnt turn up for the US Cup in 1996 and basically hated McCarthy from the start and coupdnt wait for an opportunity to rip his head off.

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better but I am not sure how.  Once Keane aired his views there was a toxic atmosphere that had to be confronted.  Also Keane had told McCarthy he wanted to go home bwfore arsing him about and changing his mind. What was all that about??  Would any sane person walk away from a World Cup because the footballs were a day late arriving?

If rather not remember it. 

As Duff said, would we have really got any further with Keane?

Is the team treated better now as a result?

If it was purely down to Mick accusing him of injury then why had he already walked out earlier that week only for Mick Byrne to persuade him to stay? This narrative off all being fine until the despicable manager dared suggest that a man who played for his club a few days after being too 'injured' to travel to Iran and who had regularly skipped Ireland games without even notifying the manager on occasion might have faked it has been peddled by the Keane set up since Dunphy's book and probably before. He probably believes it himself by now. It's not factual though. It's up there with the other myth that Saipan was a training camp rather than a rest and recreation stop. The training facilities in Japan were top class. And the myth that there were no balls or training gear. DHL mislaid 2 skips of official gear which were late arriving. But there was other gear there that was available.

I spoke to players over there about it. Their opinion was Roy just didn't want to be there. I've always thought that if Man U had won something that season Roy would have been more content and got on with it. The fact that they'd lost the CL semi to a club he didn't consider a big club and had seen Arsenal do the double was eating at him. He's admitted that the culture at Man U was driving him mad since the treble year and he couldn't handle the laid back attitude at Ireland despite the fact it worked for the rest of the squad. So engineered an exit.

It's Interesting that the woman where treated with the same unprofessional conditions up until recently they never had a Saipan. However at the same time the general public after the world cup never really viewed the national team in the same light till about the playoffs in 2009 I'd say. 

IS it mick ? No

Is it Saipan? no 

Is it the team no ?

Then what is it roy ?

It’s me me me 

For whatever reasons he just didn’t want to be there . 

Sadly for Keane it was him that missed out on a work cup . The rest got on with it . 

Yes, we played extremely well in the four games without him (apart from the first half against Cameroon) and went out of the tournament undefeated in normal time.

Would we have done any better with him in the team? It seems debatable.

Just go to Japan with its immaculate facilities and get to work. If you don't want to get to work straight away, then give the players some time off with their families for the first few days in Japan.

Saipan was a dream come true for the odious sh*te-stirring media. They must have loved every minute of it.

And whatever you say about Mick, at least he left when his time with Ireland was up. He wasn't hanging around after being hammered at home, like some others we could name.

 

The 4-2 loss to Russia and the 2-1 loss to Switzerland got him the sack.

He failed to turn up in Sunderland for the Niall Quinn testimonial, and missed the briefing for the trip to Saipan.

Personally I reckon the press were just as scared of him as others and therefore sided with him regardless.

The purpose of going to Saipan was to acclimatize to the heat, and based on the fact that we came back from behind in 3 of our four games, and out played Spain in extra time suggests that it was successful.

Like D69, I talked to a few of the players in Chiba where they were based, and there was no sympathy for Roy and nothing but praise for the facilities in both Saipan and Chiba.

The fact that Mick never realised that Spain only had 10 players in ET, was really irrelevant as we threw everything at them going for a win, we never sat back. The players were extremely confident going into the Spain game and gave 110%.

I would say that the general consensus of Irish fans out there was Mick was right and Roy walked out. It is a fact that Roy only turned up when it suited himself, and he left for Manchester after the home play off leg against Iran without even informing Mick he was not going to Iran.

It was well known that Roy and Mick barely spoke (the handshake after beating Holland) and Keane would communicate with Mick Byrne the physio.

 

The time he didn't 'turn up' for the US Cup in 96 he rang the FAI but someone forgot to pass on the message, this is the FAI we're talking about.

 

Yes blame anyone but Roy, I mean he rings the FAI switch and says hi this is Roy, I'm not going to the Us and hangs up. That is contempt for his country nothing else.  Do you think he would have tried that with Utd?

Leaving FAI incompetence aside, he should have turned up as captain of the team full stop. 

I find it hard to stomach that whole 'wrong on both sides/ 50/50 blame' when Keane had a record as long as your arm of indiscipline and contempt towards the Irish national team set up, previous manager prior to Saipan. 

I would take the word of the supporters from here that were out in Japan and got it from the horses mouth (players themselves) as to who was in the wrong and  who simply didn't want to be there. 

You'll have to ask the D69er and GF as I wasn't there but I would believe what they're saying is true. 

I'm not going to start naming people I had private conversations with but it is true that the players blacked out Roy's face from the team picture on the back of the team bus and also placed a card on his seat RIP

There was a song in the pubs where we were staying sung every night and also by parts of the crowd at games

Keano went mad

Keano had to go home

Not Quinn

Not Stan

Not Mick McCarthy

Keano went mad and had to go home 

If that is true about the RIP thing, it's bang out of order in my opinion.  But when a group of lads full of testosterone get together common sense and fairness doesn't always prevail .

David Connolly and Ian Harte were rumoured to have had sympathy with Keane and Gary Been. 

The RIP thing is true and has been mentioned in some players' books as far as I'm aware. It was a joke to relieve some of the tension, I wouldn't consider it as big a deal as being named captain for a US tour and not showing up at the airport without telling anyone for example.

Like GF, I'm not going to start naming people on a message board that I had private conversations with. But again, numerous players have said on the record that the facilities in Chiba were exceptional. Some have expressed regret that Keane didn't get to see them. You'd be amazed how many of the general public still think Saipan was the training camp.

In 2002 there was a combination of Keane being a worldy, playing with Man United, and the narrative that he dragged us to the finals. Since then, events have overtaken themselves and I feel with objective specs on it's hard to side with Keane.

Keane was in the wrong initially.

Mick threw jet fuel on the fire when he should have done his job and managed the situation.

 

 

I also agree with Het-field.    I was definitely in the pro-Keane camp back in 02, but have changed my whole view on it since then.

To me that is contingent on whether there remained any good faith between the parties. If not, it was likely to boil over at some point, and that could have been in the days or hours before the Cameroon game, or at another delicate point.

It's easy to injunct McCarthy to manage the situation, when he was the lightning rod for Keane's concerns and frustrations, and there was personal animosity there. It was a very hard situation to manage, especially as Keane had once decided to leave.

Exactly I think lads you are giving too much gravitas to chats in pubs with players . 

Keane's behaviour was unacceptable on many occasions but that doesn't make what the players did regarding the RiP sign or what Mick did regarding making comments about his captain feigning injury  in front of the rest of the players.  A top class manager doesn't do that.  

Players are selfish and none of them would have batted an eyelid if Mick had a quiet word with Roy about his comments in the Irish times.  

That is in no way defending Keane's comments in the papers about his fellow team mates which were far from ideal and were unacceptable.  

If said player chose his words in a measured manner which clearly implied that they were comments said in confidence then I'm not going to put them up on the internet. In any case, all he said was that it was clear from the off that, for whatever reason, Roy just didn't want to be there. He didn't profess to know why but it was someone who would have been in plenty of squads with him and so would have known him well.

I think you're being way over the top in relation to the RIP sign, it's gallows humour, nothing more. I'd say Keane himself would probably chuckle at that.

There was a narrative carefully created by Keane's people after Saipan and I'm amazed how many bought into it. In relation to his injury, it's a fact that he was git enough to play on the Saturday at home, declared himself unfit to play the second leg the following Thursday yet played for Man U 2 days later against Leicester on the Saturday, in the Champions League v Bayern the next Tuesday and again in the league v Arsenal the following weekend. You honestly think that's not picking and choosing? 

Keane had already walked once before then and I'm pretty sure was already having a go before missing the second leg got brough up. 

He was sent home!

How anyone can even say that Roy's behavior in not turning up for the US Cup and allegedly ringing an unnamed FAI employee is acceptable is living on a different planet. Roy the manager would not accept that. Ireland was never his No 1 priority and still isn't. Personally the sooner he departs the better. 

So why did he not turn up for the play off 2nd leg in Iran, and not even notify Mick he was not travelling?

D69 has listed the gamed he magically was fit for a few days later, and he has a history of the same carry on.

Straw man argument I never said his behaviour was acceptable.  I have made comments which state that Keane was largely at fault and that mick made a mistake with regard to the meeting. I also said the players shouldn't have put the rip sign.  So to summarise. Keane was largely and fault but others didn't cover themselves in glory either. 

Yourself and drum want to paint a picture of mick and the rest the squad made no mistakes and Keane was 100 per cent fault for everything.  To me that is the more unreasonable argument which sees no good in Keane and no bad in mick.  

And since then Roy had admitted that was not the problem, he also never explained why he never turned up for Quinns testimonial and for the team briefing.

The rest of the squad and Mick did their best but there is only one person responsible, and making excuses for him is sad IMO.

Tell me how it benefited Ireland for the manager to accuse Roy Keane of faking an injury and miss a game. 

Take it as a given that Keane was bang out of order and was the one mostly at fault.  But that does not mean that Mick did not make a mistake by provoking the bear.  

But Roy did fake injuries

There had to be a clear the air meeting at some stage and the reality is Roy did not want yo play for Mick

I won't apologize for putting my country first every time something Roy never did.

Had Roy turned up in Sunderland he could have expressed his concerns but that's also Mick's fault 

Even if it's true that Roy faked injuries what purpose did it serve.  How did it benefit Ireland.  How was it good management.  You seem to think criticism of Mick is praise of Roy.  It's not either or.  It can be mix of both were more criticism for Roy.  

That's not actually my position, I certainly think Mick could have handled it better. I can still recognise that Roy was being treated with kid gloves for a long time and treated differently as it was.

If it wss down to me I'd have let him skip Saipan .

Calling a meeting is not an issue.  Going on the attack is not good management as it did benefit Ireland in anyway.  Either did Keane's behaviour.   
 

Good stuff drum. Well said. Glad you clarified as would hate to pick you up wrong 

Maybe I am wring but I think things had already passed the point of no return when Mick accused him of faking injury. I thonk Keane had torn strips off him and this was juat an interjection.

Thing is Keane did miss games he could have played in and was more than fit to play the Iran game in Tehran but decided not to to placate Ferguson. He also said in his book he "didnt do friendlies" and Ferguaon would pull them out of international duty with injuries.  

This. Kind of surprised at Mick- there presumably was a time when he felt he had to 'justify' his actions, but that time is long gone. He has stated his position often enough over the years, can't see what's to be gained by dragging it up again. I know it was more Dunphy in this case (a man with no reputation for stirring the pot...) but Mick should have batted it away same as he did at the press conference last week. 

He was even in a foul humour at Dublin Airport before they left, this was reported at the time.

But look who got the interview out of him. Dunphy. Still milking saipain for his own ends. And now from the other side. Snake of a man

Do me a favour

Programme just finished on RTE Wan about Saipan. 

So we never got an answer?  Who was right?

It's a pity WC 2002 never gets the attention 90 or 94 gets. They did perform really well in the end.

Some funny moments and good memories from it 

Mick made mistakes. Should have done things behind closed doors man to man. 

But, Roy was out of all order. The team played better without him. Holland and Kinsella played super so doubt the team could have done better and could have done worse. He was a red card waiting to happen.

The real shame was we were top seeds for euro 2004. Thats where roy was badly missed.

Greece won that euros..........

Arsenal doing the double and losing the CL semi to Leverkussen was eating him up. Was an explosion waiting to happen. Should have skipped Saipan. 

People talk about how McCarthy managed him and seem to forget the amount of preferential treatment he'd already been given to try and keep him onside. 

The Branch Keanians stayed loyal to the death.

The Stephen Keany Phenomenon

Are they related to the Branch Kennians?

Yes both originated from the same group The Branch Davidians but splintered off

Agreed, although I’m sure he was pretty f**king exasperated with it all by that stage. 

Keane was, and will always be, wrong. 

Skipped the 2nd leg due to injury but managed to play a full game 2 days later. Do me a favour in the words of the man himself.

We all know Fergie made him pull out of the away  leg and it nearly cost us.

Must have been some recovery methods at United.

Himself, Neville and Richards did a WC preview for SkyBet and he spoke about it. It's the most animated I've seen him speak about Ferguson trying to stop him playing for us.