The 8th - Repealed! |
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Gabrieléire
Davey Langan Joined: 22 Jul 2016 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 758 |
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hope tomorrow goes the way it should, vote yes.
Edited by Gabrieléire - 24 May 2018 at 1:15am |
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benboview
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 16 Nov 2012 Status: Offline Points: 326 |
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Fundamental rights belong in the constitution, not in the hands of the sell outs from FF & FG.
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sid waddell
Roy Keane On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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Impossible to do that - three former attorney generals (I refuse to say attorneys general as it really irks me even though it may be technically correct) have said it's impossible and any basic reading of the wording by a lay person shows it's impossible to amend it. It needs to be OBLITERATED. I don't particularly fancy to living in a theocracy where: 12 year old rape victims are forced to give birth against their will or where pregnant women who have cancer have to leave the state to get treatment or where women who have a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality are treated as a mere vessel, thanks very much. You can shove your 8th Amendment up your arse. |
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Fly
Joe Lapira Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Here's my take on it (debut post btw) - The abortion debate is essentially a moral and values driven issue, and I don’t find it a particularly complex or difficult one. I’ll preface my contribution by stating my own position. I would, on balance and with a heavy heart, allow the option of abortion for the well known exceptions. But - let’s be very clear - that is not what is proposed to replace the current provision, and I would not allow exceptions to override all else for a general rule. At the core of this debate is the value of human life itself, and a person’s arbitrary decision that it is inconvenient to have a child does not trump the independent right to life of the unborn. Their level of personal discomfort with having a child has no impact morally on the definition of whether that person is a life or not. The idea that the definition and value of human life can be dependent on an individual’s emotional state or convenience is one of grave significance. Either human life has intrinsic value or it doesn’t and anytime you draw any line other than the conception of the child, you end up drawing a false line that can also be applied to adults. Bluntly, the suggestion that human beings have the subjective capacity to define as life that which they wish to preserve is a dangerous one with consequences for society as a whole. Such statements can still appear abstract to some. Let me present the following case: I have come to regard the liberalisation of abortion laws as thee most significant act in rubber stamping the decline of a nation as we know it, or knew it. It's my strong contention that when a society deviates from the established view regarding the sanctity of life, or, in more secular terms, a simple objective definition to life, then society will also deviate from other established values as a logical consequence. The implication is not only glaringly obvious but is borne out by the demographic statistics for other nations. Take our nearest neighbour as an example. In Britain the marriage rate has tumbled and the divorce rate has risen since the late ‘60s and early '70s. Today, the percentage of marriages that end in divorce stands at 42%. The number of children born out of marriage has dramatically increased, to a point where it is nearly level pegging with its wedded counterpoint. Over 20% of all pregnancies end in abortion. This is despite the reasons for the introduction of the 1967 Abortion Act running along similar lines to those espoused for the repeal of the 8th amendment. These statistics find parallel across the ‘Western World’ with the average divorce rate in the EU currently standing at 44%, and America at just over 50%. However, Ireland’s divorce rate is still remarkably low at 12-13%, despite almost 25 years since the divorce referendum. It is also of interest to note that Ireland also has the highest natural birth rate in the EU; the only country which comes close to replenishing it’s own population (the necessary 2.1 figure) without the need for immigration. Why the difference? As religion and faith in general have declined across the Western World, the current ‘rights’ based progressive ethos has emerged to try and fill the gap. It has helped to bring many undoubted advancements, the emancipation of gay people being the most obvious one. However, this ethos has a very serious flaw. Together with the economic and legal changes that have run alongside and been spurred by it, it has fostered a culture of entitlement. In other words, an increasing mentality of self-involvement, self-interest and narcissism. This is reflected in the decline of the family and the collapse of the birth rate. The other Western nations have been in decline, anthropologically speaking, for some time now. The decline of the family heralds the growth of the state. The ever expanding state brings ever increasing debt. The low birth rate together with increasing life expectancy greatly enhances the need for immigration; and the demographic & cultural change that results from that leads to the kind of stark political changes we have seen across Europe and America in recent times. These societies lack the same cohesion they once had and have become more fractured. It's for this reason that I'd counsel against this glee, for want of a better word, regarding the decline of the Catholic church and, in more general terms, the decline of religion and faith. As Edmund Burke said - “Society is indeed a contract. It is a partnership . . . not only between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born.” It’s almost painful to see how some people are so willing to throw out the best of what has gone before. I hate the smug and glib inferences that the morality and values of our parents, grandparents and beyond, was somehow inferior in comparison to that of the current enlightened, more compassionate and ‘modern’ populace. This is the same Enlightened generation that is increasingly content to subcontract the care of children, the elderly, the vulnerable and the dependent out to others. To have seen the effects of large scale immigration elsewhere, where immigrants allow the wealthy and middle classes amongst the ‘natives’ to live in the style they have grown accustomed to, whilst those ‘natives’ at the bottom who aren’t so entitled and are willing to do the more menial work can no longer compete with the cheaper imported labour. Then of course, the demographics start to change, the culture starts to change, and their country doesn’t feel like it used to anymore and the immigrants, the majority of whom only want to better their own lives and that of their family, suddenly become unwelcome. But hey….we’re ‘modern’! The central point is that morality and value systems are very important and there are consequences for society when they change. The insidious side of the rights based ethos is demonstrated best by the abortion debate. We live in an age where all forms of contraceptives, from condoms to the morning after pill, are widely and virtually freely available and sex education is, to the best of my knowledge, mandatory in schools. Despite this, it is claimed that abortion is an urgent requirement. With such facilities and such information flow so readily available, can the “right to choose” not be properly located in the choice to use effective contraception; or in adoption; or, and I don’t mean to be prudish, in abstinence? Indeed it is proposed by many that abortion is akin to a human right. This suggestion is delusional and dangerously absurd. For abortion to be a human right, one has to disengage the most fundamental human right of all – the right to life – and to dehumanise the defenceless human in utero in preference to the freedom of choice of the parent or parents. Moreover, if the most important of all the human rights is so easily upended, what the fate of the subsequent human rights, so hard-earned over the last 70 years. It is not rights that make the character, it’s responsibility, and one of the hallmarks of a cohesive society is the correct balance between human rights and human responsibilities. The granting of a right to abort the unborn, outside of the exceptions, represents a complete negation of responsibility. While it may be argued that this assertion is too judgemental in any individual circumstances, the removal of the right to life of the unborn to enable others to exercise a lesser right of choice, will also remove society’s obligations of responsibility. Therefore, we now stand atop the slippery slope. The slope other nations have already travelled down!
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cardwizzard
Liam Brady Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Meath Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Interesting first post
Head bangers trolling the internet and putting up this nonsense everywhere...
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the_walls
Jack Charlton 6 in a row, alive alive oh.. Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Location: Walkinstown Status: Offline Points: 5182 |
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I can't understand how it would be impossible for the people to change the wording of the 8th via a referendum. Do you have a link to this? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to understand the reasoning behind their opinion.
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bhob
Roy Keane YBIGs Donald Trump Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 10470 |
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Bots copying and pasting stuff all over internet forums. Sure it's not even in the normal font of the forum so it sticks out like a sore thumb
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ringerbell
Jack Charlton Joined: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 8013 |
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Well that's a few minutes of my life im not going to get back after reading all this Interesting 1st post btw would be interested to know what way you think we should lineup in Paris on Monday
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the closest i will ever come to playing for ireland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0_7w4JyvI4
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lassassinblanc
Paul McGrath Cheese, it’s not just for eating Joined: 27 Sep 2010 Location: Clairefontaine Status: Offline Points: 16468 |
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Haven't really listened to much of the goings on or debates in regards to the Referendum but watched Six one news yesterday and Shanley interviewed (interrogated) both sides and again the Yes campaigner came out with a lot more dignity then the No side did.
For example Yes campaigner gave clear and concise answers to every question with facts and figures to back up his claims, while the your wan from the no side basically sprouted that everything the yes side had said was nonsense with no facts herself. She also sidetracked and had to be asked 4 times by Shanley was the No campaigns view was on on a woman who had been raped having to give birth. Didn't actually give an actual answer to this either. I was already voting Yes but after viewing that last night it is now set in stone |
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the_walls
Jack Charlton 6 in a row, alive alive oh.. Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Location: Walkinstown Status: Offline Points: 5182 |
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To be fair there is no one answer to that question for the entire No side. Some on the No side would think abortion should be permitted in those circumstances.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25085 |
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One of the lads I know is voting no and his highly opiniated girlfriend called him a prehistoric monster
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Lenny82
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2914 |
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I haven't seen one NO campaigner answer that question on a woman who had been raped. They fluff about and talk about offering help etc. Witho ut giving a straight answer. The majority obviously believe that there should be zero grounds for a termination regardless of the circumstances and their suggestions to re-word or amend the 8th, is all a stall tactic as they had no interest in engaging or putting forward suggested wording or proposals prior to it being drafted.
If this is a NO I will be appalled and you won't hear a dickie Bird from any of the NO side on re-wording and going again with a 2nd referendum nor will you see any change to the care, or lack there of, offered to woman forced to have babies in terrible situations be it health or economic.
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the_walls
Jack Charlton 6 in a row, alive alive oh.. Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Location: Walkinstown Status: Offline Points: 5182 |
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Why is she still with him in that case
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Newryrep
Paul McGrath Just can't get enough of lists Joined: 14 Jan 2009 Status: Offline Points: 15256 |
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There’s your chance now muff
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'Irish' Songs for an Irish team - no SPL EPL generic sh*te
Richard Dunne - 6th Sept 11 - best marshalling of a defence in Moscow since General Zukov Russia V Germany 1941 |
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GB 1HughJarse
Liam Brady Joined: 03 Sep 2015 Status: Offline Points: 2091 |
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You don’t by any chance work in the Iona Institute, do you Fly? Do you have a picture of John Charles McQuaid above your mantelpiece? |
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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Just read the comments made by that vile Ronan Mullen. He is one depraved individual.
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bhob
Roy Keane YBIGs Donald Trump Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 10470 |
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"you deserve love and respect despite what you have done" to the woman who had an abortion in the UK What an utter ****bag he really is.
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9fingers
Paul McGrath Ballymun Resident #MONKEANO Joined: 30 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 16144 |
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Hideous human being, I think even the some the no side audience members were taken aback by some of his comments. Anyway fair play to him, he’ll definitely swing undecideds away from No
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