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Over 30 - Any future?

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Kevin Kilbane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 12:28pm
[QUOTE=Mr Brick]There we go again - forcing logic on why Coleman and Doherty could be relocated from roles in which they excel. Manning into CB before an experienced 230-plus EPL CB like Clark? Or Lenihan - unluckly as he may be - who has never and is unlikely to ever play above Championship level? 

Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL.



[/QUOTE

Or maybe 3 games in 6 days for a group of lads, several of whom had played limited minutes at club level required some rotation, no? Maybe he should have just played the reserves vs Portugal, but of course he'd have been hung out to dry for that too. Doherty was shagged after the Portugal game, Hendrick and Mc Grath too. Coleman missed the Serbia game, O'Shea was injured vs Portugal. Robinson wasnt able to commit to more than 30 minutes in either game (and again at the weekend for WBA), Connolly picked upo an injury in the Azeri game. Its never that simple. Asides from the 2nd half vs Azerbaijan where a relatively inexperienced front 3 lost their way when chasing the game, the football was reasonably good over the three games. 

Oh yeah and of course Anthony Barry has no tactical nous, a first team coach at the current European champions. You can sl*g Kenny off all you want, but reverting to ill considered hyperbolae doesnt really add anything to the debate. Fwiw I think Kenny needs a couple of positive results to round off the campaign, but I have been relatively pleased with the progress displayed over the course of the last 5 games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:


Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL.


I'd have thought it was more lessons learned from the Luxembourg game. He HAD to make changes, in hindsight, some of those changes were probably the wrong ones.


     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

[QUOTE=Mr Brick]

Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL.


I'd have thought it was more lessons learned from the Luxembourg game. He HAD to make changes, in hindsight, some of those changes were probably the wrong ones.


[/QUOTE
I would agree, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. If some of the more experienced lads in the team e.g. Coleman/Doherty had put the ball in the net early on]then maybe we'd be having a different conversation. 

Idah has 6 goals in 37 senior games, Parrott 4 in 43, Connolly 6 in 49 - Together they have 2 goals combined in 25 internationals (both from Parrott vs Andorra). Long (17 in 88 internationals) was ruled out with Covid, Robinson (1 in 20) wasnt fit to start. You could make an argument that maybe Collins (2 in 13), Hogan (0 in 8) or Maguire (1 in 12) should have been involved, but it would hardly be a compelling one. We have a group of lads learning on the job, I dont see that as Kenny's fault - he is doing his best with a squad devoid of lads who can put the ball in the net. That appeared to me to be the main problem vs the Azeri.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by John Nice John Nice wrote:

[QUOTE=Mr Brick]There we go again - forcing logic on why Coleman and Doherty could be relocated from roles in which they excel. Manning into CB before an experienced 230-plus EPL CB like Clark? Or Lenihan - unluckly as he may be - who has never and is unlikely to ever play above Championship level? 

Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL.



[/QUOTE

Or maybe 3 games in 6 days for a group of lads, several of whom had played limited minutes at club level required some rotation, no? Maybe he should have just played the reserves vs Portugal, but of course he'd have been hung out to dry for that too. Doherty was shagged after the Portugal game, Hendrick and Mc Grath too. Coleman missed the Serbia game, O'Shea was injured vs Portugal. Robinson wasnt able to commit to more than 30 minutes in either game (and again at the weekend for WBA), Connolly picked upo an injury in the Azeri game. Its never that simple. Asides from the 2nd half vs Azerbaijan where a relatively inexperienced front 3 lost their way when chasing the game, the football was reasonably good over the three games. 

Oh yeah and of course Anthony Barry has no tactical nous, a first team coach at the current European champions. You can sl*g Kenny off all you want, but reverting to ill considered hyperbolae doesnt really add anything to the debate. Fwiw I think Kenny needs a couple of positive results to round off the campaign, but I have been relatively pleased with the progress displayed over the course of the last 5 games.
Thank God for Andorra - the difference between 6.25% win ratio and 0%. By the way, what's the opposite to the campaign being "rounded off"? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by John Nice John Nice wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

[QUOTE=Mr Brick]

Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL.


I'd have thought it was more lessons learned from the Luxembourg game. He HAD to make changes, in hindsight, some of those changes were probably the wrong ones.


[/QUOTE
I would agree, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. If some of the more experienced lads in the team e.g. Coleman/Doherty had put the ball in the net early on]then maybe we'd be having a different conversation. 

Idah has 6 goals in 37 senior games, Parrott 4 in 43, Connolly 6 in 49 - Together they have 2 goals combined in 25 internationals (both from Parrott vs Andorra). Long (17 in 88 internationals) was ruled out with Covid, Robinson (1 in 20) wasnt fit to start. You could make an argument that maybe Collins (2 in 13), Hogan (0 in 8) or Maguire (1 in 12) should have been involved, but it would hardly be a compelling one. We have a group of lads learning on the job, I dont see that as Kenny's fault - he is doing his best with a squad devoid of lads who can put the ball in the net. That appeared to me to be the main problem vs the Azeri.

The counter argument to this of course is that, if you have a squad that is short on goalscoring threats, the first thing you must absolutely do is make yourself as hard as possible to score against.

One of the great contradictions of the Kenny era has been our tendancy to leave ourselves wide open at the back as a result of trying to play more attacking, possession based football during a period when we are not even close to having the quality of attacking players needed to give this strategy a chance of paying off at the other end of the field.

We don't have quality creative midfielders and we don't have goalscoring forwards. Above any time in our recent history this was not the time to be switching to a more open style of play.


Edited by You Tell Me - 14 Sep 2021 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by John Nice John Nice wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

[QUOTE=Mr Brick]

Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL.


I'd have thought it was more lessons learned from the Luxembourg game. He HAD to make changes, in hindsight, some of those changes were probably the wrong ones.


[/QUOTE
I would agree, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. If some of the more experienced lads in the team e.g. Coleman/Doherty had put the ball in the net early on]then maybe we'd be having a different conversation. 

Idah has 6 goals in 37 senior games, Parrott 4 in 43, Connolly 6 in 49 - Together they have 2 goals combined in 25 internationals (both from Parrott vs Andorra). Long (17 in 88 internationals) was ruled out with Covid, Robinson (1 in 20) wasnt fit to start. You could make an argument that maybe Collins (2 in 13), Hogan (0 in 8) or Maguire (1 in 12) should have been involved, but it would hardly be a compelling one. We have a group of lads learning on the job, I dont see that as Kenny's fault - he is doing his best with a squad devoid of lads who can put the ball in the net. That appeared to me to be the main problem vs the Azeri.

The counter argument to this of course is that, if you have a squad that is short on goalscoring threats, the first thing you must absolutely do is make yourself as hard as possible to score against.

One of the great contradictions of the Kenny era has been our tendancy to leave ourselves wide open at the back as a result of trying to play more attacking, possession based football during a period when we are not even close to having the quality of attacking players needed to give this strategy a chance of paying off at the other end of the field.

We don't have quality creative midfielders and we don't have goalscoring forwards. Above any time in our recent history this was not the time to be switching to a more open style of play.

Again, I'd agree with some of that, but the xG stats were something like 2.25 vs 0.25 against Azerbaijan, so we didnt really cough up many chances and its hardly Kenny's fault that his most experienced defender didnt close his man down. That wasnt great Azerbaijan play or us being too open at the back, there were plenty of defenders around, they just didnt do their job and it was a great strike, a sucker punch if you will.

I'm also not sure what you are suggesting he should do. I agree absolutely we have a paucity of creative players and goalscorers in the squad, but what are you advocating, I mean we are already playing 5 at the back. As far as I can see he is trying to get us to play football and that has to be the way forward. We were going nowhere since Trappatoni tbh, football has moved on and the put em under pressure and long ball approach isnt going to see us qualifying for major tournaments. 

He hasnt picked the easy solution, but if we are to see any real progress then these are steps that we absolutely have to take to get back in the mix imo. Results may be lagging behind performances and may continue to do so until the young lads develop a little more, but its certainly more pleasing (to me at least) on the eye. 

Hung for a sheep, hung for a lamb, I'd prefer to die trying! Btw I'm not 100% sold on Kenny, but I see chinks of light and progress however slow. He needs a couple of positive results over the next 3 competitive games for me to back offering him a new contract, but I do fervently hope he gets them, otherwise we are again back to square one and frankly some of the alternatives that have been suggested arent exactly inspiring. Michael O'Neill got time up North and it paid off for them, I just dont see a logical next step if we get rid of Kenny, so I'm hoping we dont have to go down that road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 4:05pm
Ultimately I'm suggesting that we need to sacrifice a progressive style of play in favour of results at least in the short term. Longer term, if and when we have a better team, we can go back to being more expansive, but we're probably talking a couple of campaigns away at least before we have the players to do that, if they do indeed come through.

Despite our change in style our few goals that we do score are still coming predominantly from crosses and set pieces, so we're not really gaining anything with the passing game, eventually we revert to playing it down the channels and getting crosses in anyway, usually once we go behind in games. 

Personally I would want us to pull the plug on playing out from the back for now, we just don't have the players for it yet (other than the goalkeepers and Omobamidele). That doesn't mean we need to go hoofing it long to James Collins either, there is a middle ground that involves playing the ball forward with intent but also making sure our defence is well protected also.

I know it's not what a lot of supporters want to see and it's not Kenny's natural style, but we need to win a few games badly and we so have the players to be more effective playing that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 4:47pm
I appreciate that response and it's an entirely valid opinion, perhaps Kenny should have adopted a more pragmatic approach from the outset, but we are where we are now, this campaign is effectively over and I dont see the point in reverting to type now.

My view is that if we aspire to greater things then it is important that we instill the philosophy now. I dont believe that we can just suddenly adopt a new style when we decide the players are ready for it. Granted there are lads in this squad who probably don't suit the passing it out from the back approach, notably Duffy, but Brighton seem to be able to make that work currently. You cant tell me that Coleman at Everton and Doherty at Spurs arent encouraged to do just that, week in, week out. Egan is perfectly capable with the ball at his feet and I dont see much of Anderlecht, but I would assume they play a relatively progressive passing game, so it shouldnt be beyond Cullen either. If we want our young lads to develop and play at PL level, then this is the way the game is going imo. Sure there are a few teams like Burnley who manage to survive in the top flight playing pragmatic football, but do we really want to be the Burnley of international football?

Maybe youre right, maybe Kenny has tried to do things too quickly and if so, he'll likely pay the price, but I hope he can get the couple of positive results that he needs to stay on and continue the "process" :) We have a lot of promising young players coming through, if we can instill a philosophy right up through the age groups then maybe we can start to both get results and play something other than "puke" football, which frankly is what it has been over the last 10 years. I went to every home game for 20 plus years, but I gave up towards the end of the Trappatoni regime and frankly I havent been tempted back since, bar the odd freebie. If Kenny gets the nod (and I fully accept he now needs results to do so), I'll be back, because first and foremost I love the game - I suspect I am not alone in this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fozz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Despite our change in style our few goals that we do score are still coming predominantly from crosses and set pieces, so we're not really gaining anything with the passing game, eventually we revert to playing it down the channels and getting crosses in anyway, usually once we go behind in games. 

I'd disagree with this.
We're gaining a lot more possession.  That's not nothing as while we may not be great with the ball, it's better we have it than not.

We had sub 50% posession in that 1-0 over Georgia under Mick.
We had 10% more of the ball in the 1-1 v Azerbaijan.
Now clearly the former was a better result, but I believe that Azerbaijan result was an outlier and the stats back that.
I'd much rather how we are playing now than watching teams like Georgia come to our ground and dominate the ball, while we hoof it away time after time.

So yes, we are gaining from it and we will only gain more as our playing pool increases.
It's a painful change but the alternative is far worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Ultimately I'm suggesting that we need to sacrifice a progressive style of play in favour of results at least in the short term. Longer term, if and when we have a better team, we can go back to being more expansive, but we're probably talking a couple of campaigns away at least before we have the players to do that, if they do indeed come through.

Despite our change in style our few goals that we do score are still coming predominantly from crosses and set pieces, so we're not really gaining anything with the passing game, eventually we revert to playing it down the channels and getting crosses in anyway, usually once we go behind in games. 

Personally I would want us to pull the plug on playing out from the back for now, we just don't have the players for it yet (other than the goalkeepers and Omobamidele). That doesn't mean we need to go hoofing it long to James Collins either, there is a middle ground that involves playing the ball forward with intent but also making sure our defence is well protected also.

I know it's not what a lot of supporters want to see and it's not Kenny's natural style, but we need to win a few games badly and we so have the players to be more effective playing that way.

We are predominantly scoring from crosses because our strikers are not good enough to covert the chances being made. 

Playing a more simple style of play was not really getting us anywhere. We came third under Mick and brought it to the final game, but given Gibraltar were a whipping boy for everyone, the only team we really finished above was Georgia and they will be sick because they were at least even with us in the landsdowne game and in Georgia they should have beaten us only for bad finishing. Even though we got results against Denmark and Swiss, we were clearly second best in those games and they were not enjoyable to watch. The performances under Mick were really nothing to write home about and we kind of got above what our performances merited vs. under Kenny, I would say we are on less points than our performances have merited... 

Gibraltar away: We were poison against one of the worst teams in qualifying would would be far below Az and Lux. We basically got out of jail thanks to a Randolph save as well. 

Georgia Home: We got the win from great free kick, but we were also very poor, Georgia will be disappointed to lose the game, randolph pulled off at least one great save. We had 14 shots on goal, 2 on target, they had 13 shots on goal, 2 on target. 51% possession. They had more passes than us. We got the win but you won't get them all the time and a draw would be been the more fair result We got out of jail. 

Denmark away: They dominated us. They should have been home and dry. We got a goal from a free kick and nearly won it at the end. Great to get a result but Denmark on another day would have finished us off. We were by far the 2nd best team.

Swiss home: They were by far superior team. We got lucky that McClean worked had and got a cross in that got a lucky deflection and onto McGoldrick's head to rescue the point. 

Georgia away: They were the better team, wasteful in the final third and we were lucky to get out with 1 point.

Switzerland away: They completely dominated us, we couldn't get a foot on the ball. Easy win for them.

Gibraltar home: We were far better team but poor in front of goal.

Denmark home: Probably our best performance under Mick, especially second half but you felt Denmark were always in control. 







Edited by t_rAndy - 14 Sep 2021 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandwagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Ultimately I'm suggesting that we need to sacrifice a progressive style of play in favour of results at least in the short term. Longer term, if and when we have a better team, we can go back to being more expansive, but we're probably talking a couple of campaigns away at least before we have the players to do that, if they do indeed come through.

Despite our change in style our few goals that we do score are still coming predominantly from crosses and set pieces, so we're not really gaining anything with the passing game, eventually we revert to playing it down the channels and getting crosses in anyway, usually once we go behind in games. 

Personally I would want us to pull the plug on playing out from the back for now, we just don't have the players for it yet (other than the goalkeepers and Omobamidele). That doesn't mean we need to go hoofing it long to James Collins either, there is a middle ground that involves playing the ball forward with intent but also making sure our defence is well protected also.

I know it's not what a lot of supporters want to see and it's not Kenny's natural style, but we need to win a few games badly and we so have the players to be more effective playing that way.


But the style of play has had very little to do with our results, we're not shipping goals by being caught in possession, by playing it out from the back or on the break etc. We're still defensively sound enough ..and if anything, we are creating more chances on goal than previously with this approach. The problem is we're still not finding the back of the net.

If you're to take the Azerbaijan game for example, we were grand right up until HT when we conceded against the run of play. We'd created 6 decent attempts on goal before that and should have put away at least 1 of those if not for very poor finishing.

When they scored the narrative of the game changed, they got behind the ball in numbers and got very compact at the back. They made it very hard for us to break down and they very effectively killed off our game plan of trying to play it into the box. We had to change our plan accordingly to deal with that. We played cross after cross into the box and put them under pressure until they folded ..and it eventually worked.

The problem on the night though was that we conceded a poor goal and then let them dictate the game.

Had we not conceded and let them sit back, we stay in possession and control of the game. It would have been a lot more open and we'd have gotten more chances like we did in the first half prior to conceding. 
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