Over 30 - Any future?
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Topic: Over 30 - Any future?
Posted By: John Nice
Subject: Over 30 - Any future?
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 3:32pm
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Here's a team of lads currently 30 or over who are in contention for the next Irish squad. My question is this - Post WC22 qualification, should any of them be retained in the Euro 24 Qualification squad? Names and Ages when the Euro 24 finals kick off in June 2024 as follows: 1. Randolph 37 2. Coleman 35 3. Stevens 34 4. K. Long 34 5. C. Clark 34 6. J. Mc Carthy 33 7. H. Arter 34 8. C. Hourihane 33 9. J. Collins 33 10. S. Long 37 11. J. Mc Clean 35 IMO its hard to make a case for any of them to be considered post this campaign and certainly post the NL campaign (whiuch I think ends roughly this time next season). Having said that we have seen players in the past whose most significant contributions to the Irish cause have come in their 30s e.g. Wes, Daryl Murphy, Didzy. Thoughts? |
Replies:
Posted By: DeclanDaly
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 3:44pm
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I can easily see a future in which nobody but Coleman is playing in two years - at least in the prem/championship If Coleman can continue to play I see him around the squad for years in some capacity. McClean is a physical freak so he may well go on for years, although not at international level ------------- You asked if I'd be anyone from history, fact or fiction, dead or alive: I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995" |
Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 4:36pm
| No doubt, Seamus has been a great servant, but he will be 33 in October. Tbf, we surprisingly dont have a lot of options coming through at right back, Doherty is 29, Christie 28 and after that we are hoping the likes of MacNamara at Millwall (22), Lee O'Connor 21 at Tranmere and/or Lyons at Bohs (21) progress significantly, so assuming he starts next season as first choice at Everton then he probably stays in the squad for the Nations league campaign, but by the time the Euro 24 qualifiers start in earnest (March 2023 I think), he will be 34 and 35 by the time they end. Ever since the leg break, he has struggled to maintain fitness for prolonged periods, so its hard to see him starting for Ireland at 35. Happy to be proven wrong on this one, but rb/rwb is a physically challenging position as opposed to say CB. |
Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 4:53pm
| It's all dependent on the player, some of those on the list have looked after their bodies, less injuries, less league games, so it's all down to form really. They're there until there's someone better, I wouldn't put them out to pasture just because of their birth cert. |
Posted By: Left foot
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 4:56pm
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Kenny should be looking to replace the older players with the new generation. (Even to be considered if they are unproven yet) The difficulty for ireland is that we don't want to be in the same position we are in with forward players. We never looked to replace Walters, Shane Long or Mcclean up front because we were are thinking of the next game only. Player availability an issue too of course. We now have a very inexperienced and untried front line with no competitive goals between them. We do have players for midfield with Knight, molumby, Cullen etc that need games. Selecting Mccarthy, Brady hourihane etc is probably not forward thinking.
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Posted By: horsebox
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 6:09pm
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Italy are winning major tournaments with a couple of pensioners in defense! It's up to the younger players to earn their way into the team. Goran Pandev is still banging in the goals for North Macedonia at the tender age of 38. ------------- It was far across the sea, When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
Posted By: kevin100
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 6:32pm
Coleman Collins and possibly Clark/Randolph aside (with a few injuries) aside the notion of seeing any of those players in the squad by March 2023 which is the start of the qualifiers is hideous to me and the latter two I would hope won't play for us again with the talent at goalkeeper/CB. Doherty Duffy Egan Hendrick will all be potentially 30 by then and Robinson and Cullen will be 27 and 26. Kelleher and O'Shea will be 24. That's plenty experience per say. If Bagan keeps playing for Cardiff like he has done I would hope he starts getting very handy amongst the senior squad soon. Hopefully Scales might hit the ground running too at Celtic. Bagan is a lovely addition as we need fresh blood at LB Stevens and McClean are blatantly not suited to the way Kenny is trying to play and by that stage will be going backwards. It's going to be fascinating to see by March 2023 what new faces will be in the squad. Coleman/Doherty are two decent RBs. McNamara Ebosele Kioso are all promising but aren't at the level of the two boys yet! Midfield Coventry Taylor Schmodics Doyle Hayes Knight Molumby Kilkenny Noss Johansson Smallbone you would hope will progress further by then and start leaving some of the above midfielders redundant. I particularly like Doyle Hayes he's under the radar compared to most of those but he really looks the part and most importantly perfect if your trying to pass the ball. Was missing for Hibs the weekend and they missed him badly. |
John Nice wrote:Posted By: Fozz
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 6:50pm
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Can only pick Coleman out of that list as someone who could still be competing at a high-enough level to feature for us. A couple of others may be still around as cover but the rest are either crocked (McCarthy) or past it (McClean, Hourihane, Arter, Long). But these players need to be moved on by replacements, and some may well be around longer than we'd like due to a lack of pressure. |
Posted By: Green Cockade
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 7:23pm
| Robbie Brady will be 30 in a few months. If he can shake off the injury problems he cannot be written off. Latest rumours are linking him with Swansea, whose manager Russell Martin was Norwich captain when Robbie played for them. |
Posted By: Left foot
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 7:34pm
I totally agree, Brady has a bit of magic about him when he plays. Sadly however he's been in and out of injury for the best part of 5 years. Getting older doesn't improve prone to injury players. Same as mccarthy.
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Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 7:53pm
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Brady at 29 falls into the group,just below those listed, as do Doherty, Hendrick, Horgan, Hogan and Duffy. Egan and Christie are 28, so these guys will be 32/31 when the Euros ko in 2024. For me Doherty, Duffy, Egan and Hendrick should absolutely be retained to provide that core of experience. Egan captain for me! Horgan, Hogan and Christie are already on the periphery, we should move on from them unless they are doing sthing exceptional at club level. Christie might be OK as we don't have many rb options, particularly if Coleman retires. Brady, i'm on the fence, if he can find form and fitness then sure, but that's a big if. I certainly wouldn't be planning a team around him.
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Posted By: Bandwagon
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 9:14pm
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Probably just Coleman, Clark and Collins. They all keep themselves in good shape and have been relatively injury free, Coleman and Clark will probably still be playing away at Everton and Newcastle until 2023 at the earliest anyway. Collins would depend on how the younger lads progress for us but he will probably still be a Championship striker. Brady, McCarthy and Randolph are all f**ked with injuries. Cant see any of them still playing by 2024. |
Posted By: Green Cockade
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 9:57pm
| Coleman looking as impressive as ever for Everton in tonight's 3-1 win over Burnley. |
Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 9:04am
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Agreed re Clark - should be in the squad especially if we continue to play 3 at the back (which I think we should) - Minimum of 5 actual CBs required in the squad - Duffy, Egan, Omabamidele, O'Shea (out for 6 months), N. Collins. Room for at least one more in the next couple of squads Clark and/or Lenihan at a minimum. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: giveittochristie
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 9:26am
I think Kenny saw Coleman and possibly Manning as being able to play there also, hence Clark missing out. Coleman didn’t work all that well at CB so he may revisit if Clark stays in the Newcastle team. I think he’s a bit unlucky we are overloaded in that position. So is Lenihan who has 2 caps despite playing at a similar level to guys like Alan Browne who has close to 20
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Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 10:09am
I get that, but with O'Shea now out, I think he has to call up another CB (at least one). Manning has played less than a handful of games there and imo it doesnt suit Coleman at all, in fact Doherty is probably a better CB than Coleman, certainly better in the air. Portugal game was our best performance over the last 3 imo against a very good side. Both Coleman at RWB and Doherty at LWB played well in that game, Doherty in particular linked very well with Connolly down the LHS first half, so I would stick with those two in the wing back positions. Not sure re Scales ability to play CB but again he's been playing LB/LWB afaik this season. Agreed re Lenihan being unlucky considering he is club captain at Blackburn also. Omabamidele, Duffy, Egan are certs, Nathan Collins if he's fit will probably stay in (despite no ft football), but thats only 4. Clark and/or Lenihan have to be called up imo. Given the first game vs Qatar is a friendly, it might even be sensible to start one of them along with N. Collins in that game. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 12:28pm
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[QUOTE=Mr Brick]There we go again - forcing logic on why Coleman and Doherty could be relocated from roles in which they excel. Manning into CB before an experienced 230-plus EPL CB like Clark? Or Lenihan - unluckly as he may be - who has never and is unlikely to ever play above Championship level? Kenny had a good night in Portugal but then quickly reverted to kind with the changes for Azerbaijan. He either disrespected the opposition or simply stuffed up. More likely both. There's more tactical nous in the AUL. [/QUOTEOr maybe 3 games in 6 days for a group of lads, several of whom had played limited minutes at club level required some rotation, no? Maybe he should have just played the reserves vs Portugal, but of course he'd have been hung out to dry for that too. Doherty was shagged after the Portugal game, Hendrick and Mc Grath too. Coleman missed the Serbia game, O'Shea was injured vs Portugal. Robinson wasnt able to commit to more than 30 minutes in either game (and again at the weekend for WBA), Connolly picked upo an injury in the Azeri game. Its never that simple. Asides from the 2nd half vs Azerbaijan where a relatively inexperienced front 3 lost their way when chasing the game, the football was reasonably good over the three games. Oh yeah and of course Anthony Barry has no tactical nous, a first team coach at the current European champions. You can sl*g Kenny off all you want, but reverting to ill considered hyperbolae doesnt really add anything to the debate. Fwiw I think Kenny needs a couple of positive results to round off the campaign, but I have been relatively pleased with the progress displayed over the course of the last 5 games. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: horsebox
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 1:48pm
I'd have thought it was more lessons learned from the Luxembourg game. He HAD to make changes, in hindsight, some of those changes were probably the wrong ones. ------------- It was far across the sea, When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 2:02pm
I'd have thought it was more lessons learned from the Luxembourg game. He HAD to make changes, in hindsight, some of those changes were probably the wrong ones. I would agree, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. If some of the more experienced lads in the team e.g. Coleman/Doherty had put the ball in the net early on]then maybe we'd be having a different conversation. Idah has 6 goals in 37 senior games, Parrott 4 in 43, Connolly 6 in 49 - Together they have 2 goals combined in 25 internationals (both from Parrott vs Andorra). Long (17 in 88 internationals) was ruled out with Covid, Robinson (1 in 20) wasnt fit to start. You could make an argument that maybe Collins (2 in 13), Hogan (0 in 8) or Maguire (1 in 12) should have been involved, but it would hardly be a compelling one. We have a group of lads learning on the job, I dont see that as Kenny's fault - he is doing his best with a squad devoid of lads who can put the ball in the net. That appeared to me to be the main problem vs the Azeri. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: You Tell Me
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 2:26pm
One of the great contradictions of the Kenny era has been our tendancy to leave ourselves wide open at the back as a result of trying to play more attacking, possession based football during a period when we are not even close to having the quality of attacking players needed to give this strategy a chance of paying off at the other end of the field. We don't have quality creative midfielders and we don't have goalscoring forwards. Above any time in our recent history this was not the time to be switching to a more open style of play.
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Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 3:05pm
Again, I'd agree with some of that, but the xG stats were something like 2.25 vs 0.25 against Azerbaijan, so we didnt really cough up many chances and its hardly Kenny's fault that his most experienced defender didnt close his man down. That wasnt great Azerbaijan play or us being too open at the back, there were plenty of defenders around, they just didnt do their job and it was a great strike, a sucker punch if you will. I'm also not sure what you are suggesting he should do. I agree absolutely we have a paucity of creative players and goalscorers in the squad, but what are you advocating, I mean we are already playing 5 at the back. As far as I can see he is trying to get us to play football and that has to be the way forward. We were going nowhere since Trappatoni tbh, football has moved on and the put em under pressure and long ball approach isnt going to see us qualifying for major tournaments. He hasnt picked the easy solution, but if we are to see any real progress then these are steps that we absolutely have to take to get back in the mix imo. Results may be lagging behind performances and may continue to do so until the young lads develop a little more, but its certainly more pleasing (to me at least) on the eye. Hung for a sheep, hung for a lamb, I'd prefer to die trying! Btw I'm not 100% sold on Kenny, but I see chinks of light and progress however slow. He needs a couple of positive results over the next 3 competitive games for me to back offering him a new contract, but I do fervently hope he gets them, otherwise we are again back to square one and frankly some of the alternatives that have been suggested arent exactly inspiring. Michael O'Neill got time up North and it paid off for them, I just dont see a logical next step if we get rid of Kenny, so I'm hoping we dont have to go down that road. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: You Tell Me
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 4:05pm
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Ultimately I'm suggesting that we need to sacrifice a progressive style of play in favour of results at least in the short term. Longer term, if and when we have a better team, we can go back to being more expansive, but we're probably talking a couple of campaigns away at least before we have the players to do that, if they do indeed come through. Despite our change in style our few goals that we do score are still coming predominantly from crosses and set pieces, so we're not really gaining anything with the passing game, eventually we revert to playing it down the channels and getting crosses in anyway, usually once we go behind in games. Personally I would want us to pull the plug on playing out from the back for now, we just don't have the players for it yet (other than the goalkeepers and Omobamidele). That doesn't mean we need to go hoofing it long to James Collins either, there is a middle ground that involves playing the ball forward with intent but also making sure our defence is well protected also. I know it's not what a lot of supporters want to see and it's not Kenny's natural style, but we need to win a few games badly and we so have the players to be more effective playing that way.
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Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 4:47pm
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I appreciate that response and it's an entirely valid opinion, perhaps Kenny should have adopted a more pragmatic approach from the outset, but we are where we are now, this campaign is effectively over and I dont see the point in reverting to type now. My view is that if we aspire to greater things then it is important that we instill the philosophy now. I dont believe that we can just suddenly adopt a new style when we decide the players are ready for it. Granted there are lads in this squad who probably don't suit the passing it out from the back approach, notably Duffy, but Brighton seem to be able to make that work currently. You cant tell me that Coleman at Everton and Doherty at Spurs arent encouraged to do just that, week in, week out. Egan is perfectly capable with the ball at his feet and I dont see much of Anderlecht, but I would assume they play a relatively progressive passing game, so it shouldnt be beyond Cullen either. If we want our young lads to develop and play at PL level, then this is the way the game is going imo. Sure there are a few teams like Burnley who manage to survive in the top flight playing pragmatic football, but do we really want to be the Burnley of international football? Maybe youre right, maybe Kenny has tried to do things too quickly and if so, he'll likely pay the price, but I hope he can get the couple of positive results that he needs to stay on and continue the "process" :) We have a lot of promising young players coming through, if we can instill a philosophy right up through the age groups then maybe we can start to both get results and play something other than "puke" football, which frankly is what it has been over the last 10 years. I went to every home game for 20 plus years, but I gave up towards the end of the Trappatoni regime and frankly I havent been tempted back since, bar the odd freebie. If Kenny gets the nod (and I fully accept he now needs results to do so), I'll be back, because first and foremost I love the game - I suspect I am not alone in this. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: Fozz
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 4:49pm
I'd disagree with this. We're gaining a lot more possession. That's not nothing as while we may not be great with the ball, it's better we have it than not. We had sub 50% posession in that 1-0 over Georgia under Mick. We had 10% more of the ball in the 1-1 v Azerbaijan. Now clearly the former was a better result, but I believe that Azerbaijan result was an outlier and the stats back that. I'd much rather how we are playing now than watching teams like Georgia come to our ground and dominate the ball, while we hoof it away time after time. So yes, we are gaining from it and we will only gain more as our playing pool increases. It's a painful change but the alternative is far worse.
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Posted By: t_rAndy
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 5:22pm
We are predominantly scoring from crosses because our strikers are not good enough to covert the chances being made. Playing a more simple style of play was not really getting us anywhere. We came third under Mick and brought it to the final game, but given Gibraltar were a whipping boy for everyone, the only team we really finished above was Georgia and they will be sick because they were at least even with us in the landsdowne game and in Georgia they should have beaten us only for bad finishing. Even though we got results against Denmark and Swiss, we were clearly second best in those games and they were not enjoyable to watch. The performances under Mick were really nothing to write home about and we kind of got above what our performances merited vs. under Kenny, I would say we are on less points than our performances have merited... Gibraltar away: We were poison against one of the worst teams in qualifying would would be far below Az and Lux. We basically got out of jail thanks to a Randolph save as well. Georgia Home: We got the win from great free kick, but we were also very poor, Georgia will be disappointed to lose the game, randolph pulled off at least one great save. We had 14 shots on goal, 2 on target, they had 13 shots on goal, 2 on target. 51% possession. They had more passes than us. We got the win but you won't get them all the time and a draw would be been the more fair result We got out of jail. Denmark away: They dominated us. They should have been home and dry. We got a goal from a free kick and nearly won it at the end. Great to get a result but Denmark on another day would have finished us off. We were by far the 2nd best team. Swiss home: They were by far superior team. We got lucky that McClean worked had and got a cross in that got a lucky deflection and onto McGoldrick's head to rescue the point. Georgia away: They were the better team, wasteful in the final third and we were lucky to get out with 1 point. Switzerland away: They completely dominated us, we couldn't get a foot on the ball. Easy win for them. Gibraltar home: We were far better team but poor in front of goal. Denmark home: Probably our best performance under Mick, especially second half but you felt Denmark were always in control. |
Posted By: Bandwagon
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 5:44pm
But the style of play has had very little to do with our results, we're not shipping goals by being caught in possession, by playing it out from the back or on the break etc. We're still defensively sound enough ..and if anything, we are creating more chances on goal than previously with this approach. The problem is we're still not finding the back of the net. If you're to take the Azerbaijan game for example, we were grand right up until HT when we conceded against the run of play. We'd created 6 decent attempts on goal before that and should have put away at least 1 of those if not for very poor finishing. When they scored the narrative of the game changed, they got behind the ball in numbers and got very compact at the back. They made it very hard for us to break down and they very effectively killed off our game plan of trying to play it into the box. We had to change our plan accordingly to deal with that. We played cross after cross into the box and put them under pressure until they folded ..and it eventually worked. The problem on the night though was that we conceded a poor goal and then let them dictate the game. Had we not conceded and let them sit back, we stay in possession and control of the game. It would have been a lot more open and we'd have gotten more chances like we did in the first half prior to conceding.
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Posted By: John Nice
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 4:17pm
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Team hereunder, all 30+ made up of lads who have been in and around the squad over the last 18 months and their respective ages come the end of 2021. Who has a future, bearing in mind that they will be 2 to 3 years older when the Euro Finals kick off in June 2024? Who should we dispense with prior to the NL campaign? RANDOLPH 34 WEST HAM COLEMAN 33 EVERTON MC CLEAN 32 WIGAN K. LONG 31 BURNLEY CLARK 32 NEWCASTLE STEVENS 31 SHEFF UTD MC CARTHY 31 CELTIC ARTER 32 CHARLTON S. LONG 34 SOUTHAMPTON HOURIHANE 30 SHEFF UTD J. COLLINS 31 CARDIFF There's also a slew of lads who turn 30 in January 2022 - Duffy, Doherty, Brady and Hendrick, but given they will be just 32 in June 2024, they should all be fine, age wise at least. Christie and Horgan are both 29 also. ------------- Idah Dream! |
Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 4:32pm
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I would think that Randolph, Clark and Kevin Long might be the ones that will have the most difficulty breaking in on a consistent basis. There are new alternatives that we can grow with in this positions. I suspect the ball is in James McCarthy’s court, and is he is ready and available he is in a position where we are fairly light. Arter has show some real character by being an ever present over the past 6 months, even though he has played for a few moments of the past 7 games. But it’s either there. Collins and Long depend on how our young strikers go.
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Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 4:55pm
------------- YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017 AS YOU WERE McGx |
Posted By: aviva8
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2021 at 11:08am
Randolph is a great servant but we are fine keeper wise. Coleman, McClean, Stevens, Clark(if we have injuries in that position), McCarthy and Hourihane are all good enough to be in our squad. The rest for me is a no. I would rather Obafemi or even Keane be given a chance instead of Collins because he is not up to it
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Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2021 at 11:59am
Posts moved from the other thread. Lads do a quick search, the function is at the top of the page or even a google search before starting a thread particularly when you yourself started an identical one a month 
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Posted By: kevin100
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2021 at 3:27pm
Randolph - Unless 2 of the 3 hotshots so to speak are injured no. Coleman - he decides when he finishes up undroppable. Mcclean - near future yes by 2023/24 I would barely have him making the squad. Long - No down the pecking order Clark- No bar a few injuries good backup Stevens - so poor under Kenny until Tuesday. If he performs then yes nailed on. McCarthy - no needs to concentrate on club career now. Arter - Kenny married to him don't know why. Think Doyle Hayes or Taylor should have got a look in for the friendly at his expense. Long - Bar injuries no. A top pro/character even for the younger players to have around the training ground if injuries happen. Hourihane - By 23/24 no short term yes Collins - No not it. Prefer to see Keane given a go Duffy - See Coleman stalwart next captain after him in Doherty - Yes of course Egan - Yes of course Brady - See McCarthy. Needs to worry about his club now and we need to move on. Hendrick - Yes better recently one CM playing PL football. Christie - A big no. very limited player. McNamara Kioso and Ebosele options all 22yo and under improving with high potential ceilings. All look tailor made for wing back as well. That's all the lads born 1992 or before (turning 30) that I can think of. |