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9fingers View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2021 at 9:40pm
There’s no property tax in the north, there’s rates which is, as far as I’m aware something very different. Sinn Fein being against A PT is not something I’d agree with here but there’s zero point comparing apples and oranges. 

However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2021 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:


However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 

I would take Nvidic's point that perhaps its not a progressive tax in the traditional sense, as its on the asset. However, the fact that people who pay a special rate being unaffected is different to a party speaking of abolition, especially a party whose most recent manifesto suffered from a clear lack of clarity as to how a swath of tax cuts could be reconciled with much, much greater spending. From my understanding, if this was to happen (it won't) it would return almost 500 Million (I'm open to correction) which goes to the coffers for public services, and to Shedite's point, it will come from somewhere else.


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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2021 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:


However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 

I would take Nvidic's point that perhaps its not a progressive tax in the traditional sense, as its on the asset. However, the fact that people who pay a special rate being unaffected is different to a party speaking of abolition, especially a party whose most recent manifesto suffered from a clear lack of clarity as to how a swath of tax cuts could be reconciled with much, much greater spending. From my understanding, if this was to happen (it won't) it would return almost 500 Million (I'm open to correction) which goes to the coffers for public services, and to Shedite's point, it will come from somewhere else.


I’m not defending SFs stance, I thought I was quite clear on that.  

I was pointing out if it is seen as a progressive tax why do those with the most wealth (in this case property valuation) see no difference when those with lower valuations will. 
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2021 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:


However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 

I would take Nvidic's point that perhaps its not a progressive tax in the traditional sense, as its on the asset. However, the fact that people who pay a special rate being unaffected is different to a party speaking of abolition, especially a party whose most recent manifesto suffered from a clear lack of clarity as to how a swath of tax cuts could be reconciled with much, much greater spending. From my understanding, if this was to happen (it won't) it would return almost 500 Million (I'm open to correction) which goes to the coffers for public services, and to Shedite's point, it will come from somewhere else.


I’m not defending SFs stance, I thought I was quite clear on that.  

I was pointing out if it is seen as a progressive tax why do those with the most wealth (in this case property valuation) see no difference when those with lower valuations will. 

I totally got that. Sorry if my reply was a bit garbled and gave off the impression that I was implying that. You were very clear.

I understand that Varadkar was claiming this would be a quirk without reform? I might be wrong in my understanding of his point
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 8:56am
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

There’s no property tax in the north, there’s rates which is, as far as I’m aware something very different. Sinn Fein being against A PT is not something I’d agree with here but there’s zero point comparing apples and oranges. 

However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 
I'm not too close to the NI system, but it looks the same, take your property value, multiply it by a value to get your bill. Why do you think it's different?
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 9:13am
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

There’s no property tax in the north, there’s rates which is, as far as I’m aware something very different. Sinn Fein being against A PT is not something I’d agree with here but there’s zero point comparing apples and oranges. 

However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 
I'm not too close to the NI system, but it looks the same, take your property value, multiply it by a value to get your bill. Why do you think it's different?

Because it is different. Rates system pays directly for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc etc. Our LPT is collected by local government but is then sent to Dept of Finance, it has been local only in name. 

Again I’m not against the LPT, I’m against people not comparing like for like. 
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 9:43am
These are probably just quirks in the system same as no increase for the most expensive houses in the most expensive areas of the country. 
The property tax could & should work but really it’s just squeezing the lower middle in urban areas 
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 9:54am
I think the original purpose and the way it is centralised needs to be reformed, and to me, it would make sense to make a move towards rates and council tax, with an aim of making Local Government work for itself.

People naturally view the levy in the context of the timing in which it was introduced when the spirit of the troika was alive and well, and that it falls into centralised coffers, as opposed to obvious investment in certain local services, which are very necessary.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saint Tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 11:51am
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

These are probably just quirks in the system same as no increase for the most expensive houses in the most expensive areas of the country. 
The property tax could & should work but really it’s just squeezing the lower middle in urban areas 

In a nutshell. Middle earners in the top rate brackets of income tax foot the bills already.  Not a big ask to have those with stored wealth who are not in the income tax net becsuse of lower paper ncomes contribute fairly. 
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Where patriots and super saints are the topics of conversation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

There’s no property tax in the north, there’s rates which is, as far as I’m aware something very different. Sinn Fein being against A PT is not something I’d agree with here but there’s zero point comparing apples and oranges. 

However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 
I'm not too close to the NI system, but it looks the same, take your property value, multiply it by a value to get your bill. Why do you think it's different?

Because it is different. Rates system pays directly for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc etc. Our LPT is collected by local government but is then sent to Dept of Finance, it has been local only in name. 

Again I’m not against the LPT, I’m against people not comparing like for like. 
But don't the Dept of Finance pay for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc here too? Who do ya think pays for our local Public Sports Centres, Libraries and empties the public bins?
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saint Tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

There’s no property tax in the north, there’s rates which is, as far as I’m aware something very different. Sinn Fein being against A PT is not something I’d agree with here but there’s zero point comparing apples and oranges. 

However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 
I'm not too close to the NI system, but it looks the same, take your property value, multiply it by a value to get your bill. Why do you think it's different?

Because it is different. Rates system pays directly for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc etc. Our LPT is collected by local government but is then sent to Dept of Finance, it has been local only in name. 

Again I’m not against the LPT, I’m against people not comparing like for like. 
But don't the Dept of Finance pay for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc here too? Who do ya think pays for our local Public Sports Centres, Libraries and empties the public bins?

I don't know about you but I pay private operators more than my property tax to empty my bins per month.

For the record I have no issue with taxing property I do have an issue with claiming my "local" tax is anything other than Central revenue raising exercise and as part of the squeezed middle paye I'm going to pay for it whether it comes from income or my home. I'd rather share the burden with millionaires houses who on paper don't earn income (have companies, earn nominal drawings etc, farms etc ). 
My destination inchicore my next stop being kilmainham
Where patriots and super saints are the topics of conversation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2021 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Saint Tom Saint Tom wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

There’s no property tax in the north, there’s rates which is, as far as I’m aware something very different. Sinn Fein being against A PT is not something I’d agree with here but there’s zero point comparing apples and oranges. 

However people arguing that it’s a progressive tax have ignored the fact Leo is telling FG that people with a valuation over 1 mill will be unaffected. 
I'm not too close to the NI system, but it looks the same, take your property value, multiply it by a value to get your bill. Why do you think it's different?

Because it is different. Rates system pays directly for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc etc. Our LPT is collected by local government but is then sent to Dept of Finance, it has been local only in name. 

Again I’m not against the LPT, I’m against people not comparing like for like. 
But don't the Dept of Finance pay for libraries, bin collection, sports centres etc here too? Who do ya think pays for our local Public Sports Centres, Libraries and empties the public bins?

I don't know about you but I pay private operators more than my property tax to empty my bins per month.

For the record I have no issue with taxing property I do have an issue with claiming my "local" tax is anything other than Central revenue raising exercise and as part of the squeezed middle paye I'm going to pay for it whether it comes from income or my home. I'd rather share the burden with millionaires houses who on paper don't earn income (have companies, earn nominal drawings etc, farms etc ). 
This ⬆️
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 3:13pm
I must say I'm uncomfortable with the reaction to the recent polling scandal. It seems that a number of parties are now happy to confess their sins on the matter in a form of "if we're all doing it, we cant all get into trouble" mentality. Polling is a crucial science and faith in those polling us is crucial. This faith will be impacted if people are now wary of talking to them for fear that they are not being up front about the reasons for their polling, or at least omitting to admit that they are doing so on behalf of a political party. I for one wouldn't disclose my voting intentions (or much else) for that matter to somebody who was polling for a party. I would for somebody from a reputable polling company looking for independent and non partisan statistical analysis.

I think if this gets buried due to the admissions I think this will be bad for Irish politics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seanyshuffler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

I must say I'm uncomfortable with the reaction to the recent polling scandal. It seems that a number of parties are now happy to confess their sins on the matter in a form of "if we're all doing it, we cant all get into trouble" mentality. Polling is a crucial science and faith in those polling us is crucial. This faith will be impacted if people are now wary of talking to them for fear that they are not being up front about the reasons for their polling, or at least omitting to admit that they are doing so on behalf of a political party. I for one wouldn't disclose my voting intentions (or much else) for that matter to somebody who was polling for a party. I would for somebody from a reputable polling company looking for independent and non partisan statistical analysis.

I think if this gets buried due to the admissions I think this will be bad for Irish politics.

But don't parties use polling companies to carry out polls for them anyway? Frankly I couldn't give a fiddler's if someone knew my voting intention. 

"Here Tommy! Did you hear Arthur down the road is voting Green in the next election and is also voting no in the give kids free socks referendum!"

"Jaysus I didn't, we better tell everyone!"
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 11:11pm
Non story for me too to be honest. where did we think local party opinion polls came from? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_walls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 7:52am
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Non story for me too to be honest. where did we think local party opinion polls came from? 

Agreed, I don't see the issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 8:34am
The amount of effort that the big 2 parties are putting into making it a story is really showing that they're beginning to fear SF. 

Non-story for me too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nvidic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

The amount of effort that the big 2 parties are putting into making it a story is really showing that they're beginning to fear SF. 

Non-story for me too

Don't get you on this one, didn't they both admit to it too? Not sure this adds up. 
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