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Topic: Irish Politics Thread
Posted By: Het-field
Subject: Irish Politics Thread
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 4:55pm
A general election is impending. Four years of confidence and supply appears to be coming to an end.

Will FF have sufficient numbers to take over after 9 years effectively in opposition.

Will a coalition be formed with SF?

Will Labour lose more seats?



Replies:
Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

A general election is impending. Four years of confidence and supply appears to be coming to an end.
Clap


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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "


Posted By: horsebox
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 4:58pm
FF and FG confirming they won't form a coalition with SF anyway.

Only in Ireland would it's people vote for a party that has put generations upon generations in debt.

A party that should have been disbanded and never formed again.



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Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 5:16pm
Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "


Posted By: 9fingers
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 5:44pm
I would be very surprised if Leo isn’t the next Taoiseach, although the betting market doesn’t support me in this. 
Martin currently 4/6 fav with Leo 11/10

There won’t be a clear winning party anyway so it all depends on who the smaller parties will do business with, and there’s always a smaller party ready to sell their soul to get in 


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 5:51pm
It’s a wonderful choice to have though, two humble and diligent men who only want what’s best for themselves.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Borussia
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:07pm
In some ways, I'm glad I'm not living at home at the moment and having to try and make a choice on who to vote for.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:21pm
I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.
I would spoil my vote if I was at home. There is parties here and in France I could vote for with a clear conscience.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

I think that will be evaluated and that annoying phrase “the National Interest” will be invoked. Either to explain the reasoning for staying together or splitting up.

It suited FF and FG last time. It kept Kenny as Taoiseach and it out FF back in a position of influence within a single electoral cycle. This time FF stand to gain more seats and FG lose Government. I’m not sure FG will play the “national interest” card to prop up FF, especially if the election is dirty.

I’m not sure a coalition is possible simply as there is no interest. Back in the day the centre left Labour Party and centre right PDs made ideal coalition partners. But the latter doesn’t exist and the former remains so badly burnt that they won’t do it again. Ditto the Greens who were chastened by the experience. Sinn Fein will undoubtedly want bigger numbers and influence before they do it. And the freak show parties are just perma opposition who won’t discuss it. That leaves the Independent Alliance and the SDs and FG/FF sympathetic TDS to do the business.


Posted By: Borussia
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.

I would fully agree PR being far better. 


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.

I would fully agree PR being far better. 

You can be a member of a small party which has a Parliamentary Party and a councillors forum. You can hamstring major parties via coalition. You can influence the debate as a legitimate player in the debate. 

The Irish system, while locked to an extent is not closed off like it is in the UK.


Posted By: Jackal
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 6:58pm
Loads of lies to be told by all parties.


Posted By: eireland
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:38pm
 I don't like any of them but I hope FF/FG lose votes to Labour, greens, sinn fein and independents. 


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.
I would spoil my vote if I was at home. There is parties here and in France I could vote for with a clear conscience.

PM why couldn’t you vote for the Socialist Party, the Workers Party, People Before Profit, Solidarity, Rise it some of the left wing Independents.  


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:45pm
Location will be important for the Greens. I think they’ll make gains in Dublin, and maybe in one or two constituencies, but it will be a hard see outside the usual spots. However, they’ll at least double their numbers bringing them back to 2007 levels.


Posted By: Borussia
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.
I would spoil my vote if I was at home. There is parties here and in France I could vote for with a clear conscience.

PM why couldn’t you vote for the Socialist Party, the Workers Party, People Before Profit, Solidarity, Rise it some of the left wing Independents.  

Don't think any of them would be left wing enough for him!!


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

I think that will be evaluated and that annoying phrase “the National Interest” will be invoked. Either to explain the reasoning for staying together or splitting up.

It suited FF and FG last time. It kept Kenny as Taoiseach and it out FF back in a position of influence within a single electoral cycle. This time FF stand to gain more seats and FG lose Government. I’m not sure FG will play the “national interest” card to prop up FF, especially if the election is dirty.

I’m not sure a coalition is possible simply as there is no interest. Back in the day the centre left Labour Party and centre right PDs made ideal coalition partners. But the latter doesn’t exist and the former remains so badly burnt that they won’t do it again. Ditto the Greens who were chastened by the experience. Sinn Fein will undoubtedly want bigger numbers and influence before they do it. And the freak show parties are just perma opposition who won’t discuss it. That leaves the Independent Alliance and the SDs and FG/FF sympathetic TDS to do the business.


Rubbish the only reason there was no coalition the last time and again may not be this time is the numbers and the FF AND FG do not want to go in with sin Fein or with each other’s.  

If the numbers allow it the larger party of FG and FF will lead a coalition with a mix of greens labour and social Democrats and or independents. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I would much rather the choice we have here in Ireland than in the UK or the States or France.  In addition our PR system is far better.
I would spoil my vote if I was at home. There is parties here and in France I could vote for with a clear conscience.

PM why couldn’t you vote for the Socialist Party, the Workers Party, People Before Profit, Solidarity, Rise it some of the left wing Independents.  
Whatever about any misgivings I might have about any of them, none of them have are likely to stand in my home constituency, apart from the independents, who are usually diabolical.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

I think that will be evaluated and that annoying phrase “the National Interest” will be invoked. Either to explain the reasoning for staying together or splitting up.

It suited FF and FG last time. It kept Kenny as Taoiseach and it out FF back in a position of influence within a single electoral cycle. This time FF stand to gain more seats and FG lose Government. I’m not sure FG will play the “national interest” card to prop up FF, especially if the election is dirty.

I’m not sure a coalition is possible simply as there is no interest. Back in the day the centre left Labour Party and centre right PDs made ideal coalition partners. But the latter doesn’t exist and the former remains so badly burnt that they won’t do it again. Ditto the Greens who were chastened by the experience. Sinn Fein will undoubtedly want bigger numbers and influence before they do it. And the freak show parties are just perma opposition who won’t discuss it. That leaves the Independent Alliance and the SDs and FG/FF sympathetic TDS to do the business.


Rubbish the only reason there was no coalition the last time and again may not be this time is the numbers and the FF AND FG do not want to go in with sin Fein or with each other’s.  

If the numbers allow it the larger party of FG and FF will lead a coalition with a mix of greens labour and social Democrats and or independents. 

The numbers existed to prop up parties, but nobody wanted to write their own death note, and it would have required mass cooperation. The lack of interest came first which gave rise to the lack of numbers.




Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

I think that will be evaluated and that annoying phrase “the National Interest” will be invoked. Either to explain the reasoning for staying together or splitting up.

It suited FF and FG last time. It kept Kenny as Taoiseach and it out FF back in a position of influence within a single electoral cycle. This time FF stand to gain more seats and FG lose Government. I’m not sure FG will play the “national interest” card to prop up FF, especially if the election is dirty.

I’m not sure a coalition is possible simply as there is no interest. Back in the day the centre left Labour Party and centre right PDs made ideal coalition partners. But the latter doesn’t exist and the former remains so badly burnt that they won’t do it again. Ditto the Greens who were chastened by the experience. Sinn Fein will undoubtedly want bigger numbers and influence before they do it. And the freak show parties are just perma opposition who won’t discuss it. That leaves the Independent Alliance and the SDs and FG/FF sympathetic TDS to do the business.


Rubbish the only reason there was no coalition the last time and again may not be this time is the numbers and the FF AND FG do not want to go in with sin Fein or with each other’s.  

If the numbers allow it the larger party of FG and FF will lead a coalition with a mix of greens labour and social Democrats and or independents. 

The numbers existed to prop up parties, but nobody wanted to write their own death note, and it would have required mass cooperation. The lack of interest came first which gave rise to the lack of numbers.




There was no numbers to form a coalition without ff and fg joining each other or Sinn Fein.   The smaller centre  parties such as greens labour and social democrats were only going to go into government rather than support a minority gov.  They will all go back in again if numbers suit.  


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

I think that will be evaluated and that annoying phrase “the National Interest” will be invoked. Either to explain the reasoning for staying together or splitting up.

It suited FF and FG last time. It kept Kenny as Taoiseach and it out FF back in a position of influence within a single electoral cycle. This time FF stand to gain more seats and FG lose Government. I’m not sure FG will play the “national interest” card to prop up FF, especially if the election is dirty.

I’m not sure a coalition is possible simply as there is no interest. Back in the day the centre left Labour Party and centre right PDs made ideal coalition partners. But the latter doesn’t exist and the former remains so badly burnt that they won’t do it again. Ditto the Greens who were chastened by the experience. Sinn Fein will undoubtedly want bigger numbers and influence before they do it. And the freak show parties are just perma opposition who won’t discuss it. That leaves the Independent Alliance and the SDs and FG/FF sympathetic TDS to do the business.


Rubbish the only reason there was no coalition the last time and again may not be this time is the numbers and the FF AND FG do not want to go in with sin Fein or with each other’s.  

If the numbers allow it the larger party of FG and FF will lead a coalition with a mix of greens labour and social Democrats and or independents. 

The numbers existed to prop up parties, but nobody wanted to write their own death note, and it would have required mass cooperation. The lack of interest came first which gave rise to the lack of numbers.




There was no numbers to form a coalition without ff and fg joining each other or Sinn Fein.   The smaller centre  parties such as greens labour and social democrats were only going to go into government rather than support a minority gov.  They will all go back in again if numbers suit.  

I’m honestly not sure. With SF covering certain common ground the LP could be absolutely dispensed with and the rebuilding job would be almost unworkable. The GP are also going to be wary, and there is this “anti capitalist” wing that to me seems more suitable to Solidarity or RISE, and they’ll be consulted.

I could see the SD’s though. Especially as Murphy is an excellent yet pragmatic politician who I feel would see government as the way to get things done.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 9:41pm
2 seats wont be much help.   The economy wont be growing forever.  The GP believe we have 10 years to sort the place out so they will vote to go into coalition esp if it's part of a 4 party government.  Same with LP. 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

2 seats wont be much help.   The economy wont be growing forever.  The GP believe we have 10 years to sort the place out so they will vote to go into coalition esp if it's part of a 4 party government.  Same with LP. 

Are you proposing a FG/FF/GP/LP administration? Or one with confidence and supply from one of the big parties?


Posted By: deise316
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 10:47pm
May change, but from this far out it looks like the current confidence & supply in reverse is the most likely outcome. If both FG and FF are adamant they won't deal with SF, its either the confidence & supply (with FF likely being the largest this time around) or some form of very shaky numbers wise FF/LAB/GRN/IND alliance/SD/Single issue lads/chancers like Lowry - type arrangement. The more of those that are needed to form a government the less likely it is to last long.

Don't buy the notion Greens or Lab won't go into government either, Green supporters would be voting for them with the intention they try to get into government in order to set an agenda around the Environment/Climate change, and preferably have an immediate effect, while there's so few Labour TD's actually left (ha, unintentional wordplay there)  the odds are that they won't give a single bollix about the longer term aim of rebuilding the party, just get one or 2 of them into Mercs in the short term and take what they can get out of it. 

If they chose the right Minister(s) to represent Labour in a Government and get a suitable portfolio to match (Housing be a good one, difficult enough, but probably not too difficult to improve on the current bunch)- that's probably as good a way for them to return to the public political consciousness over the next few years as mouthing some oul guff from the other side of the Dáil that we've all heard before anyway. 

When ya look at the personal success (to their pensions) of Ross, Halligan & Boxer Moran from a very small pool (all became Ministers/Mins of State) of Independent Alliance TD's, it isn't too difficult to see a similar group forming once elections are completed, and likewise, the SD's might expand at that stage without getting any of their actual candidates elected. 



 



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Picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.....


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

2 seats wont be much help.   The economy wont be growing forever.  The GP believe we have 10 years to sort the place out so they will vote to go into coalition esp if it's part of a 4 party government.  Same with LP. 

Are you proposing a FG/FF/GP/LP administration? Or one with confidence and supply from one of the big parties?

I am not proposing anything.

I am saying it will either be a min gov with ff or fg in power or it will be a coalition.led by ff or fg backed up by greens labour and social Democrats and maybe some independents.  

That's my reading of what I think is likely. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 10:58pm
Deise beat me to it. 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2020 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

2 seats wont be much help.   The economy wont be growing forever.  The GP believe we have 10 years to sort the place out so they will vote to go into coalition esp if it's part of a 4 party government.  Same with LP. 

Are you proposing a FG/FF/GP/LP administration? Or one with confidence and supply from one of the big parties?

I am not proposing anything.

I am saying it will either be a min gov with ff or fg in power or it will be a coalition.led by ff or fg backed up by greens labour and social Democrats and maybe some independents.  

That's my reading of what I think is likely. 

Okay. I guess it is possible.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 10:47am
RTE reporting that the announcement could be made today, which would mean a 7th February election.


Posted By: The Huntacha
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

Can't disagree with that. FF have been able to stand back and watch FG mess up time and time again over the last 2 years with the housing, healthcare and homelessness situation. 

I don't for one second believe that FF will do any better in relation to those matters but FG have done such a poor job that I'd be shocked if they are the majority party going forward.
 





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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:21am
And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: AnCearrbhach
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:26am
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Get the sense that FF will get more seats than FG. Can see a lot of FF's who lent their vote to FG returning to the fold.
The big question is do FG have it in them to play a supporting role to FF in any new supply and confidence agreement.

Can't disagree with that. FF have been able to stand back and watch FG mess up time and time again over the last 2 years with the housing, healthcare and homelessness situation. 

I don't for one second believe that FF will do any better in relation to those matters but FG have done such a poor job that I'd be shocked if they are the majority party going forward.
 




FF were supporting FG in government the entire time. They literally couldn't have done it without them. 


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Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 12:07pm
Saturday election. Same day as the Ireland v Wales rugby.

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...
depressing isnt it. 


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 1:41pm
In reality, the best outcome is a necessary coalition which would tag the GP or Lab onto one of the inevitable winners, but with the coalition numbers actually necessitating full cooperation and smaller party power. Even better if the SD’s joined up a form of Rainbow Coalition.

This will then create an opposition which is one of the major players, and will expect more from the Me Feiners. The Independents could form a powerful block too, which might be influential in creating a government. Hopefully all the Trots get bumped out.


Posted By: Deane
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 2:51pm
Think the Saturday election is a good idea


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Saturday election. Same day as the Ireland v Wales rugby.
That will f**k up the blue shirts, surely?


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 3:48pm
No reason you cant vote and go to the match. Polls usually open  early and close late so no excuse. 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

No reason you cant vote and go to the match. Polls usually open  early and close late so no excuse. 
Heino is one reason.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 4:19pm
those lads get up early you know 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 4:20pm
Pop up polling booth being erected in Wanderers Rugby Club as i type..

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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "


Posted By: MayoMark
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 4:22pm
50000 will be at the match. Spread that out between the electorate. Take out those who can just vote and walk to the stadium, or only have an hour or 90 minute drive, voting isn't going to be a major chore. Plus Welsh people!

The only people it may affect is people travelling 3-5 hours for the match, and there will be f**k all of those anyways.

So it will make zero impact in my view. 


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They finally did it man... They killed my f**kin' car...


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 4:37pm
it will have zero impact as you can vote from 8am.  

However small numbers do make a difference in an irish election.  The last seat in a constituency can be determined by what people have put on their 5th or 6th preference. Those final seats could determine whether ff or fg are the largest party or if a coalition us possible or not.  So every vote will count on this as its not like the UK where first past the votes means many votes are meaningless. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: The Huntacha
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...
depressing isnt it. 

Very.

Saw Emmet Kirwan on Twitter saying that the number of people who didn't vote in the last election was greater than the number who voted for FG. Now that is depressing.


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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

50000 will be at the match. Spread that out between the electorate. Take out those who can just vote and walk to the stadium, or only have an hour or 90 minute drive, voting isn't going to be a major chore. Plus Welsh people!

The only people it may affect is people travelling 3-5 hours for the match, and there will be f**k all of those anyways.

So it will make zero impact in my view. 
LOL
Definitely need the sarcasm font!


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...
depressing isnt it. 

Very.

Saw Emmet Kirwan on Twitter saying that the number of people who didn't vote in the last election was greater than the number who voted for FG. Now that is depressing.
we get what we deserve. It will be the same old rhetoric from so many people... my dad voted Fine Gael and so did his dad before him, so ill vote FG... or this is a FF family so I'm voting FF... Then as you allude to, same people will moan but wont bother their arse voting as their vote wont make a difference. 

At this stage id take a coalition of anyone except FF/FG/Lab just to see what happens. Be nice to get screwed over by someone new


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...
depressing isnt it. 

Very.

Saw Emmet Kirwan on Twitter saying that the number of people who didn't vote in the last election was greater than the number who voted for FG. Now that is depressing.
we get what we deserve. It will be the same old rhetoric from so many people... my dad voted Fine Gael and so did his dad before him, so ill vote FG... or this is a FF family so I'm voting FF... Then as you allude to, same people will moan but wont bother their arse voting as their vote wont make a difference. 

At this stage id take a coalition of anyone except FF/FG/Lab just to see what happens. Be nice to get screwed over by someone new

Up until recently ff and fg got 80 % of the vote. They now get about 50%.   That's a huge reduction. 

A coalition of anyone but ff and fg and lab is extremely unlikely as those.3 parties will get about 60%


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...
depressing isnt it. 

Very.

Saw Emmet Kirwan on Twitter saying that the number of people who didn't vote in the last election was greater than the number who voted for FG. Now that is depressing.
we get what we deserve. It will be the same old rhetoric from so many people... my dad voted Fine Gael and so did his dad before him, so ill vote FG... or this is a FF family so I'm voting FF... Then as you allude to, same people will moan but wont bother their arse voting as their vote wont make a difference. 

At this stage id take a coalition of anyone except FF/FG/Lab just to see what happens. Be nice to get screwed over by someone new

Up until recently ff and fg got 80 % of the vote. They now get about 50%.   That's a huge reduction. 

A coalition of anyone but ff and fg and lab is extremely unlikely as those.3 parties will get about 60%

But it would depend on how much one party might get to be able to cobble something together.

You make an interesting point about the reduction in the vote share. Even now, you couldn’t promote a Mullingar Accord like in 2007 as you couldn’t even be sure a basic threshold would be reached to make it worth discussing.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 6:56pm
Not really interesting just a fact and common knowledge.  Ff and fg share of the vote vas reduced massively over last decade or so but they still have leverage of.power. 

Your first point doesnt make sense.  Currently ff and fg and labour have about 60% share of vote.   As a result it's impossible to form a gov without them or their support like sham wishes for above  


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Not really interesting just a fact and common knowledge.  Ff and fg share of the vote vas reduced massively over last decade or so but they still have leverage of.power. 

Your first point doesnt make sense.  Currently ff and fg and labour have about 60% share of vote.   As a result it's impossible to form a gov without them or their support like sham wishes for above  

My point is it depends on how much of the 60% they get.

If one party gets 40% that will make a major difference.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 7:37pm
You are missing my point.  Currently ff and fg and labour make up 60% of the votes. As a result it’s impossible to form a gov without any one of ff, fg or labour as sham wishes in his posts above. 

That is true regardless how that 60% is split.


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

You are missing my point.  Currently ff and fg and labour make up 60% of the votes. As a result it’s impossible to form a gov without any one of ff, fg or labour as sham wishes in his posts above. 

That is true regardless how that 60% is split.

Sorry, what I read was that you’d need a form of coalition between FF/FG/Lab. your post seemed to suggest that. Especially with the reference to Lab, whose vote share is small and will undoubtedly stagnate at its current low level.

The is no doubt that FF and/or FG will lead a Government. However, the split of the vote would determine who might be able to go in with them. A large enough share of the 60 % could necessitate cooperation with less coalition components or reliance on a single coalition partner and sympathetic independents.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 7:53pm
I was replying to Sham it was obvious. Sham said he wanted a gov without any of those three parties 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I was replying to Sham it was obvious. Sham said he wanted a gov without any of those three parties 

Not from what I was reading. But anyway. I didn’t actually read Sham’s Post.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 8:14pm
Ffs no wonder you didnt get it. . My post was a direct reply to his. 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Ffs no wonder you didnt get it. . My post was a direct reply to his. 

I got what I got from what I read. Simple as that.


Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

we get what we deserve. It will be the same old rhetoric from so many people... my dad voted Fine Gael and so did his dad before him, so ill vote FG... or this is a FF family so I'm voting FF... Then as you allude to, same people will moan but wont bother their arse voting as their vote wont make a difference. 
At this stage id take a coalition of anyone except FF/FG/Lab just to see what happens. Be nice to get screwed over by someone new

Until recently, we had that problem in Scotland for decades with people blindly voting Labour - "I dunno anything about politics mate but I'll probably just vote fir Labour cos ma Maw and Da always vote for them and so did ma Granny and Granda ..." which consequently resulted in meatheads like Ian Davidson, Brian Donohoe, Anas Sarwar and John Robertson among many others getting elected. It was feckin depressing. 

I hope you lads don't mind but as an outsider I have a few questions about the upcoming election which interest me. 

What parties tend to appeal most to voters who may be say for example - a small business owner, a teacher, a farmer or a nurse ?

Are there any Eurosceptics in FF or FG or the other parties ? I realise of course that the "Irexit" movement in Ireland is very weak.

Are the Healy-Rae's likely to be re-elected ? (I saw that video of them having a screaming contest with MacSharry in the Dáil LOL)

I wish you all well for your election Thumbs Up


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 10:51pm
first question  fianna fail mainly for the small business and public servants 

No.euro sceptics as far as I know. Fine gael are very pro eu.  Sinn fein would be eu critical. 

Healy raes will be re elected and could probably get a 3rd seat.  


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

first question  fianna fail mainly for the small business and public servants 

No.euro sceptics as far as I know. Fine gael are very pro eu.  Sinn fein would be eu critical. 

Healy raes will be re elected and could probably get a 3rd seat.  

SF have tried to portray a reformed side for the EU. That’s based on Brexit, so total Johnny Come Lately to any sort of pro-eu rhetoric.

They’ve opposed everything that involved Irish integration within the EU. I’d be interested to know what the Shinner approach would have been had it been a “Lexit” led approach. The vast majority of the Irish left, apart from Labour would be Eurosceptic.


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:07pm
Have Labour moved back to the left? That’s great, first time in thirty odd years. 

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And then, after FF have been found out to be corrupt, self-serving bastards it will be FG’s turn again...
depressing isnt it. 

Very.

Saw Emmet Kirwan on Twitter saying that the number of people who didn't vote in the last election was greater than the number who voted for FG. Now that is depressing.
we get what we deserve. It will be the same old rhetoric from so many people... my dad voted Fine Gael and so did his dad before him, so ill vote FG... or this is a FF family so I'm voting FF... Then as you allude to, same people will moan but wont bother their arse voting as their vote wont make a difference. 

At this stage id take a coalition of anyone except FF/FG/Lab just to see what happens. Be nice to get screwed over by someone new

Up until recently ff and fg got 80 % of the vote. They now get about 50%.   That's a huge reduction. 

A coalition of anyone but ff and fg and lab is extremely unlikely as those.3 parties will get about 60%
Ah Baldy I know its pie in the sky wishful thinking at least for another generation but a man is allowed dream...ultimately when people put a number in the box, too many do so based on the ‘brand’ and the picture and who their oul lad voted for. 


Posted By: deise316
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by ErsatzThistle ErsatzThistle wrote:


I hope you lads don't mind but as an outsider I have a few questions about the upcoming election which interest me. 

What parties tend to appeal most to voters who may be say for example - a small business owner, a teacher, a farmer or a nurse ?

Are there any Eurosceptics in FF or FG or the other parties ? I realise of course that the "Irexit" movement in Ireland is very weak.

Are the Healy-Rae's likely to be re-elected ? (I saw that video of them having a screaming contest with MacSharry in the Dáil LOL)

I wish you all well for your election Thumbs Up


FF always pushed itself as the party of small businesspeople (usually men). After multiple electoral successes from the mid/late 90's to middle of the 2000's, they forgot about those lads and went after the big businesspeople, who of course, have fcuk all affiliation to anything or anyone bar their bank balances when it comes down to it. They got on famously for a long time, and ordinary Joes didn't really mind as FF were cute enough to give a bit back to them too. This was more by accident than design. Then they managed to ruin the entire country for decades when it all went belly up. 

Teachers, feck knows what they think about anything, but they'll be definite about it, even in the face of overwhelming conflicting evidence. Very dogmatic individuals. It's probably an even enough split to be honest.

FG was traditionally the party of farmers, especially the bigger ones. Actually, that's after reminding me of something, Apres Match did a whole show on Election 1982, with real footage interspersed with their dubbing of political figures of the day, and political commentators now. There's one excellent line in it (inserted by Barry Murphy & Risteard Cooper as spoof political commentators) explaining the difference between FG & FF. 

''FF were fellas from the farm who put on suits and went into the city looking for votes, FG were lads from the city who went out into the country wearing suits looking for votes'' There's more than a grain of truth in it. Worth a watch aside from any election.  https://youtu.be/ZuH_rZFGFXo" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ZuH_rZFGFXo

That aside, near enough any farmer who isn't FG is FF, it is more or less that simple. 

Eurosceptics in main parties yes, I'd imagine there are, but they tend to keep the head down generally. If something or other happened that they thought euroscepticsm was something they could exploit to their advantage, they'd do it tomorrow. Generally, Irish politicians don't really believe in anything much though, the main parties are all essentially centre-ish, and they'll move a little right or left depending on the prevailing mood of the electorate without any great difficulty and how the all important numbers stack up in the Dáil. 

Not too many far right candidates thankfully, I used to think until quite recently that a far right party would never achieve any great success here due to us being ruled by possibly the largest far right party in the world for decades, up until quite recently (albeit not necessarily from the Dáil) , but with the sheer amount of binary positions on fcukin everything been taken on social meeja, and the recent experiences of our neighbours, the Tans, ya couldn't rule it out completely in the future.










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Picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.....


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:21pm
Ah come on Deise! Even I wouldn’t call the GAA the largest far-right party in Europe, although they must be up there on membership.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: deise316
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:25pm
The real Holy Trinity PM, the Church/FF/GAA (basically one and the same thing for about 70 years)








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Picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.....


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by deise316 deise316 wrote:

The real Holy Trinity PM, the Church/FF/GAA (basically one and the same thing for about 70 years)






Well aware of it! The worst thing the Brits ever did was push the church underground, we will be ripping the roots out for generations while the other two keep planting them. Gombeen ****s.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 7:53am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Have Labour moved back to the left? That’s great, first time in thirty odd years. 

No they are still centre left in the classic European social democratic mode.  

It's a crowded field with greens and the Social Democrats there and parts of FF wanting to be in that space and Sinn Fein. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:20am
They haven’t been there for a long time. They are what I would describe as Liberal. They disowned their traditions a long, long time ago. Just because many other European ‘socialist’ parties have taken the same shift, with disastrous results, doesn’t change that.

And no parts of FF have ever been within a country mile of it! The broadchurch nationalism if SF is a mixture of all from left to right and there isn’t much I could agree with the SDs on. The Overton window has shifted so far right that it confuses people as to what the centre-left actually is. When you have people throwing out ‘Trots’ as an insult in 2020 you know there is a problem.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:24am
I wouldnt and didn’t describe them as socialist.  

I would say centre left in the classic social democratic model. They are in opposition so probably a little more left than they were in gov but that’s really nuance. 

There isn’t really a socialist party in Ireland that wants to go into government  




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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

I wouldnt and didn’t describe them as socialist.  

I would say centre left in the classic social democratic model. They are in opposition so probably a little more left than they were in gov but that’s really nuance. 

There isn’t really a socialist party in Ireland that wants to go into government  


The classic social democratic model is socialism. The classic parties have, mostly, moved away from it in Europe.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:42am
I don’t agree.  It’s the intervention of the state to promote both economic and social policies within the classic capitalist system. I believe socialism is far more state orientated especially with regards to the means of production.  

We can agree that’s Labour are not socialists and are a centre left party and not a left wing party. I don’t believe SF are either.   The centre left is a crowded field and it comes down culture and trust rather than policy really.


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:49am
I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Deane
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:50am
Where does one register to vote? Online I only see a form for 2018/2019


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:57am
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Where does one register to vote? Online I only see a form for 2018/2019

Contact your council's franchise section.  Whatever you local county council is. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 9:01am
I believe it is an awful pain in the arse at home compared to here. Although I am still on the register, despite not having even being to Ireland in four years.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Deane
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 9:31am
"This section should be completed by a member of the Garda Síochána from the applicant’s local Garda Station."

Such hassle


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 9:49am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

They haven’t been there for a long time. They are what I would describe as Liberal. They disowned their traditions a long, long time ago. Just because many other European ‘socialist’ parties have taken the same shift, with disastrous results, doesn’t change that.

And no parts of FF have ever been within a country mile of it! The broadchurch nationalism if SF is a mixture of all from left to right and there isn’t much I could agree with the SDs on. The Overton window has shifted so far right that it confuses people as to what the centre-left actually is. When you have people throwing out ‘Trots’ as an insult in 2020 you know there is a problem.

If you’re referring to my post mentioning the Trots, that wasn’t meant as an insult. The history of the Socialist Party and SWP, which was the original home for some of these people were certainly Trotskyite. And the Irish hard left spends most of its time calling each other Trotskyites.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:09am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 



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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

"This section should be completed by a member of the Garda Síochána from the applicant’s local Garda Station."

Such hassle

What's your alternative in someone registering to vote.


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

"This section should be completed by a member of the Garda Síochána from the applicant’s local Garda Station."

Such hassle

What's your alternative in someone registering to vote.
Online form here, takes a minute.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:21am
And who signs off on it.  What's to stop someone registering who is not entitled to. 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:21am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

They haven’t been there for a long time. They are what I would describe as Liberal. They disowned their traditions a long, long time ago. Just because many other European ‘socialist’ parties have taken the same shift, with disastrous results, doesn’t change that.

And no parts of FF have ever been within a country mile of it! The broadchurch nationalism if SF is a mixture of all from left to right and there isn’t much I could agree with the SDs on. The Overton window has shifted so far right that it confuses people as to what the centre-left actually is. When you have people throwing out ‘Trots’ as an insult in 2020 you know there is a problem.

If you’re referring to my post mentioning the Trots, that wasn’t meant as an insult. The history of the Socialist Party and SWP, which was the original home for some of these people were certainly Trotskyite. And the Irish hard left spends most of its time calling each other Trotskyites.
I have no problem with that term, I have a lot of respect for it. ‘Trots’ is most definitely a tabloid insult.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 

That was how it read. I’m not going to drag this into a debate on ideology, as it is pointless in Ireland. Until we fully remove the grip of the Vatican anyway. 


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:31am
my understanding is that in communism it's not just key industries but all industries owned by the state.   Private property etc is gone whereas in socialism it's not.  

I think Corbyn had a socialist manifesto not a social democratic one.  I think Blair had a centre right manifesto like Macron in France and not Social Democratic ones which you see in Denmark and Finland and Germany etc.


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:38am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

They haven’t been there for a long time. They are what I would describe as Liberal. They disowned their traditions a long, long time ago. Just because many other European ‘socialist’ parties have taken the same shift, with disastrous results, doesn’t change that.

And no parts of FF have ever been within a country mile of it! The broadchurch nationalism if SF is a mixture of all from left to right and there isn’t much I could agree with the SDs on. The Overton window has shifted so far right that it confuses people as to what the centre-left actually is. When you have people throwing out ‘Trots’ as an insult in 2020 you know there is a problem.

If you’re referring to my post mentioning the Trots, that wasn’t meant as an insult. The history of the Socialist Party and SWP, which was the original home for some of these people were certainly Trotskyite. And the Irish hard left spends most of its time calling each other Trotskyites.
I have no problem with that term, I have a lot of respect for it. ‘Trots’ is most definitely a tabloid insult.

Well, i didn’t mean it that way. It was a statement rather than an insult.


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:45am
Fair enough, that’s how it came across.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.

Spending money while having low taxes is not left wing its populist. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

my understanding is that in communism it's not just key industries but all industries owned by the state.   Private property etc is gone whereas in socialism it's not.  

I think Corbyn had a socialist manifesto not a social democratic one.  I think Blair had a centre right manifesto like Macron in France and not Social Democratic ones which you see in Denmark and Finland and Germany etc.
Corbyn’s position was very much to the right of the Norwegian and Danish parties of similar view and history. I’m not sure about Finland.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:53am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Fair enough, that’s how it came across.

Calling the likes of Corbyn etc “Trots” would definitely be derogatory and tabloidy. But the Irish left (SP/SWP) was all of the Trotskyite mindset. I can remember which one, but one or the other was affiliated to and international Trotskyite group.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.

Spending money while having low taxes is not left wing its populist. 

True, but it depends on what you mean by low taxes. When you actually look at the Irish taxation system, personal taxes are actually quite high and we confuse it with the corporation tax rate.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:59am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

my understanding is that in communism it's not just key industries but all industries owned by the state.   Private property etc is gone whereas in socialism it's not.  

I think Corbyn had a socialist manifesto not a social democratic one.  I think Blair had a centre right manifesto like Macron in France and not Social Democratic ones which you see in Denmark and Finland and Germany etc.
Corbyn’s position was very much to the right of the Norwegian and Danish parties of similar view and history. I’m not sure about Finland.

Yes but to the left of their government policies over last 25 years or so. 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Fair enough, that’s how it came across.

Calling the likes of Corbyn etc “Trots” would definitely be derogatory and tabloidy. But the Irish left (SP/SWP) was all of the Trotskyite mindset. I can remember which one, but one or the other was affiliated to and international Trotskyite group.
Again, I have no problem with the term ‘Trotskyite’. Calling anyone who subscribes to such a view, and in many ways I would include myself, a ‘Trot’ is meant as dismissive and belittling. Given your obvious contempt of the left, I assumed that’s what you meant. I apologise if I was wrong.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.

Spending money while having low taxes is not left wing its populist. 

True, but it depends on what you mean by low taxes. When you actually look at the Irish taxation system, personal taxes are actually quite high and we confuse it with the corporation tax rate.

Taxes in Ireland are low for corporations.  In 2007 we had transational taxes such as stamp duty, rather than property tax or rates which are far more predictable.  

In addition in 2007 if you earned under 30k you paid very little income tax which is unusual in europe.  

This is offset that out of your post tax income you have to pay childcare etc etc.  

10% of workers pay 60% of the income tax.  (Does  not count VAT etc)  

In ireland you hit the high rate of tax quite early, 35K I believe   


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

my understanding is that in communism it's not just key industries but all industries owned by the state.   Private property etc is gone whereas in socialism it's not.  

I think Corbyn had a socialist manifesto not a social democratic one.  I think Blair had a centre right manifesto like Macron in France and not Social Democratic ones which you see in Denmark and Finland and Germany etc.
Corbyn’s position was very much to the right of the Norwegian and Danish parties of similar view and history. I’m not sure about Finland.

Yes but to the left of their government policies over last 25 years or so. 
Not the Labour governments, that’s the point. That’s why it has all gone silly now.Obviously, Corbyn would be to the left of the current government in Norway and would share a lot of common ground with Frederiksen in Denmark.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.

Spending money while having low taxes is not left wing its populist. 

True, but it depends on what you mean by low taxes. When you actually look at the Irish taxation system, personal taxes are actually quite high and we confuse it with the corporation tax rate.

Taxes in Ireland are low for corporations.  In 2007 we had transational taxes such as stamp duty, rather than property tax or rates which are far more predictable.  

In addition in 2007 if you earned under 30k you paid very little income tax which is unusual in europe.  

This is offset that out of your post tax income you have to pay childcare etc etc.  

10% of workers pay 60% of the income tax.  (Does  not count VAT etc)  

In ireland you hit the high rate of tax quite early, 35K I believe   

Also, the introduction of things like USC was another tax which contributed to earnings returning to the public coffers. In Ireland it is possible at a certain level to return more than 50% of your pay packet to the Government.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:17am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Fair enough, that’s how it came across.

Calling the likes of Corbyn etc “Trots” would definitely be derogatory and tabloidy. But the Irish left (SP/SWP) was all of the Trotskyite mindset. I can remember which one, but one or the other was affiliated to and international Trotskyite group.
Again, I have no problem with the term ‘Trotskyite’. Calling anyone who subscribes to such a view, and in many ways I would include myself, a ‘Trot’ is meant as dismissive and belittling. Given your obvious contempt of the left, I assumed that’s what you meant. I apologise if I was wrong.

In fairness, my views on the Irish left are somewhat at odds. Ireland has had and has some fantastic left wing politicians. Christy Burke, Tony Gregory, Joe Higgins and Catherine Murphy were and are outstanding politicians. But I’d probably dislike the Irish SP and SWP and their various umbrella organisations more than any other elected left wing group in Europe.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.

Spending money while having low taxes is not left wing its populist. 

True, but it depends on what you mean by low taxes. When you actually look at the Irish taxation system, personal taxes are actually quite high and we confuse it with the corporation tax rate.

Taxes in Ireland are low for corporations.  In 2007 we had transational taxes such as stamp duty, rather than property tax or rates which are far more predictable.  

In addition in 2007 if you earned under 30k you paid very little income tax which is unusual in europe.  

This is offset that out of your post tax income you have to pay childcare etc etc.  

10% of workers pay 60% of the income tax.  (Does  not count VAT etc)  

In ireland you hit the high rate of tax quite early, 35K I believe   

Also, the introduction of things like USC was another tax which contributed to earnings returning to the public coffers. In Ireland it is possible at a certain level to return more than 50% of your pay packet to the Government.

Thata not true.  Break that down.  How would you pay more than 50% when a portion of your salary is not taxable and another portion is 20% and then goes up and usc added on brings the marginal rate to low 50%.  

So how would 50% of your overall salary be gone in taxes unless you were on savage money 


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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think you are confusing communism with socialism. I also think the centre-left is completely bare.

I dont think I am.  key difference as I see it is who owns and controls the means of production.  In socialism the key industries are owned by the state. 

The social democratic parties are not trying to change this on a large scale, but instead use the tax system to transfer the wealth.  

I think some parts of FF, SF and Labour and Greens are fishing in a similar pool which is where many Irish people are which is that the state does not control the means of production but distributes it via the tax system.  


There is probably 15% max support for socialist policies in Ireland. 


Ultimately, Ireland is a small enough country that “centrist” parties can raise spending or shift to the left fiscally on an election by election basis. 2007 was a year of auction politics. Bertie’s speech at the FF Ard Fheis made numerous promises. The metric was spending and who could outspend the other.

Nationalism in the country is revolutionary as opposed to reactionary, hence the far right make little or no inroads save for occasional noteworthy electoral performances.

The smaller the country within the EU the easier it is for the established parties to blow the right way.

Spending money while having low taxes is not left wing its populist. 

True, but it depends on what you mean by low taxes. When you actually look at the Irish taxation system, personal taxes are actually quite high and we confuse it with the corporation tax rate.

Taxes in Ireland are low for corporations.  In 2007 we had transational taxes such as stamp duty, rather than property tax or rates which are far more predictable.  

In addition in 2007 if you earned under 30k you paid very little income tax which is unusual in europe.  

This is offset that out of your post tax income you have to pay childcare etc etc.  

10% of workers pay 60% of the income tax.  (Does  not count VAT etc)  

In ireland you hit the high rate of tax quite early, 35K I believe   

Also, the introduction of things like USC was another tax which contributed to earnings returning to the public coffers. In Ireland it is possible at a certain level to return more than 50% of your pay packet to the Government.

Thata not true.  Break that down.  How would you pay more than 50% when a portion of your salary is not taxable and another portion is 20% and then goes up and usc added on brings the marginal rate to low 50%.  

So how would 50% of your overall salary be gone in taxes unless you were on savage money 

As I said, “at a certain level”. It’s high, but it does happen.


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:27am
Go on give us the figure and breakdown 

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AKA pedantic kunt


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Go on give us the figure and breakdown 

Of a complex tax calculation? You hit the nail on the head when you said “savage mone.



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