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Russian Invasion of Ukraine
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
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Points: 3487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 22 minutes ago at 3:51pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

again sounds very 1 sided as in putin could never do any right

The narrative is Ukraine looked west democraticly.  When you dig into it Russia bailed them out. The EU didn't. And the uprising wasn't peaceful.

“Bailed them out”, with no strings attached? Pull the other one. Do you genuinely believe that Russia just fronted them the money as a gesture of goodwill?

The EU offered them a platform to stabilise their economy.  It’s not an economic bailout in the sense of liquidity, but it would facilitate greater capacities to stabilise the economy.

Whipping putin over this is just falling into the 1 sided trap again

I don’t buy that. Reuters carried an article at the time that Putin strong armed Yanukovic at the time, both publicly and privately, with threats to the Ukrainian economy. Of course, you hate meddling so that should instantly be distasteful to you. 
 






I'm laying out the reasons why Ukraine stayed aligned with Russia. That led to the revolt by some.of the people


Selling the Euromaidan as “some of the people” is one way of minimising the strength of feeling at the time. I assume you see the strings attached as meddling?

I wasn't trying to minimise it. However you can't make out it was an all in protest. It was heavily supported. However it was divisive. Much the liel.land reforms zelensky snook through parliament in 2020. And as it turned violent it wasn't democratic. It led to the led of a democraticly elected president. Coup probably  is the wrong word. But it wasn't democratic. 

As for.meddling. was our bailout from IMF meddling?
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
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Points: 10706 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 4 minutes ago at 4:09pm
Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

again sounds very 1 sided as in putin could never do any right

The narrative is Ukraine looked west democraticly.  When you dig into it Russia bailed them out. The EU didn't. And the uprising wasn't peaceful.

“Bailed them out”, with no strings attached? Pull the other one. Do you genuinely believe that Russia just fronted them the money as a gesture of goodwill?

The EU offered them a platform to stabilise their economy.  It’s not an economic bailout in the sense of liquidity, but it would facilitate greater capacities to stabilise the economy.

Whipping putin over this is just falling into the 1 sided trap again

I don’t buy that. Reuters carried an article at the time that Putin strong armed Yanukovic at the time, both publicly and privately, with threats to the Ukrainian economy. Of course, you hate meddling so that should instantly be distasteful to you. 
 






I'm laying out the reasons why Ukraine stayed aligned with Russia. That led to the revolt by some.of the people


Selling the Euromaidan as “some of the people” is one way of minimising the strength of feeling at the time. I assume you see the strings attached as meddling?

I wasn't trying to minimise it. However you can't make out it was an all in protest. It was heavily supported. However it was divisive. Much the liel.land reforms zelensky snook through parliament in 2020. And as it turned violent it wasn't democratic. It led to the led of a democraticly elected president. Coup probably  is the wrong word. But it wasn't democratic. 

As for.meddling. was our bailout from IMF meddling?

Yes, it would be meddling. But it’s worth looking at the stings attached to the Russian bailout, which included using it as a carrot and a stick to beat Yanukovic with in 2014. This included a threat to withhold the second tranche of the payment if he didn’t crackdown on protestors. Equally, Yanukovic was threatened over the second tranche when it seemed he was willing to make concessions to the opposition in early 2014. In this case, Russia was preventing the potential peaceful resolution of the unrest by threatening the Ukrainian economy. This returns to the point of how Russian meddling was infinitely more influential in the events of 2013, the ongoing unrest, and ultimately the invasions. 
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


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Points: 3487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5 hours 53 minutes ago at 4:20pm
so you can accept there was some meddling by the US aswell. But Russia more
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

so you can accept there was some meddling by the US aswell. But Russia more

I don’t accept that what you call ‘meddling’ was meddling, nor do I believe any actions taken by the US had any impact on where we are today. Russian fingerprints are all over it. So in short, there should be a free pass given to the US on this one. It’s on Russia’s shoulders? Why didn’t they allow Yanukovic work with the opposition in February 2014, a point at which this could all have been avoided.
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


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Points: 3487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 34 minutes ago at 6:39pm
are you telling me that US presence un Ukraine had zeronimpact on today's situation?
I've shared a myriad of links.
Victoria nuland is photographed at the euromaiden protests as just one example. Do you think she was there to support Russian interests?
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Points: 10706 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 27 minutes ago at 6:46pm
Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

are you telling me that US presence un Ukraine had zeronimpact on today's situation?
I've shared a myriad of links.
Victoria nuland is photographed at the euromaiden protests as just one example. Do you think she was there to support Russian interests?

A best negligible impact. Nuland at a protest is a world for difference to Medvedev threatening the Ukrainian economy if they don’t respond to the Maidan protests, on their terms. 

How much of an impact do you think it had?
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


Joined: 09 Apr 2011
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Points: 3487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 20 minutes ago at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

[QUOTE=OohAah...]are you telling me that US presence un Ukraine had zeronimpact on today's situation?
I've shared a myriad of links.
Victoria nuland is photographed at the euromaiden protests as just one example. Do you think she was there to support Russian interests?

A best negligible impact. Nuland at a protest is a world for difference to Medvedev threatening the Ukrainian economy if they don’t respond to the Maidan protests, on their terms. 

How much of an impact do you think it had?
[/QUOTE
Atleast that's political.bargaining
How.much impact do you think us ops behind the scenes had? 
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


Joined: 09 Apr 2011
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Points: 3487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 19 minutes ago at 6:54pm
Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

[QUOTE=OohAah...]are you telling me that US presence un Ukraine had zeronimpact on today's situation?
I've shared a myriad of links.
Victoria nuland is photographed at the euromaiden protests as just one example. Do you think she was there to support Russian interests?

A best negligible impact. Nuland at a protest is a world for difference to Medvedev threatening the Ukrainian economy if they don’t respond to the Maidan protests, on their terms. 

How much of an impact do you think it had?
[/QUOTE
Atleast that's political.bargaining
How.much impact do you think us ops behind the scenes had? 

A high-profile US goverrnemtn minister should be no where near the protest. It's leading
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Points: 10706 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 18 minutes ago at 6:55pm
Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

[QUOTE=OohAah...]are you telling me that US presence un Ukraine had zeronimpact on today's situation?
I've shared a myriad of links.
Victoria nuland is photographed at the euromaiden protests as just one example. Do you think she was there to support Russian interests?

A best negligible impact. Nuland at a protest is a world for difference to Medvedev threatening the Ukrainian economy if they don’t respond to the Maidan protests, on their terms. 

How much of an impact do you think it had?
[/QUOTE
Atleast that's political.bargaining
How.much impact do you think us ops behind the scenes had? 

Negligible to none. I assume you’re talking about the CIA intelligence that we have discussed at length? How much of an impact do you think it had?

“Political Bargaining”. That’s political bullying by Russia, who have done more than enough of it over the past decade. “Do things our way, or we’ll bankrupt you.”


Edited by Het-field - 3 hours 9 minutes ago at 7:04pm
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


Joined: 09 Apr 2011
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there articles about their involvement in the unrest. It falls under the belief umbrella. 

However let's deal with the obvious stuff. Nuland a high profile member of US governement should not be at these protests and siding with one side. This is meddling. Nuland should not be having conversations picking the next governemt. This is meddling. It's actuality  inexcusable. Arrogant and ignorant. This is one example of US not getting a free pass.
And I'm not eacusing Russia. 
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Points: 10706 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 minutes ago at 10:09pm
Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

there articles about their involvement in the unrest. It falls under the belief umbrella. 

However let's deal with the obvious stuff. Nuland a high profile member of US governement should not be at these protests and siding with one side. This is meddling. Nuland should not be having conversations picking the next governemt. This is meddling. It's actuality  inexcusable. Arrogant and ignorant. This is one example of US not getting a free pass.
And I'm not eacusing Russia. 

Government officials will have conversations about future governments all the time. The Nuland call was deliberately blown out of proportion to suggest meddling, when that call was in no way evidence of meddling. Government’s also take sides in conflict. Political neutrality is almost non-existent in these situations. And it’s totally overblown in comparison to the obvious, and direct meddling that was taking place from Moscow, which included direct efforts at repressing the protests, and threatening the Ukrainian economy when concessions were apparently being made to Yanukovich’s opposition.
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


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Points: 3487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 seconds ago at 10:13pm
they want a hand in everything even when. It's on Russia doorstep. They dismissed Russians fear


Hand-picking governemts of countries is the height of empire  behaviojr
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