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Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine
Posted By: Neil Armstrong
Subject: Russian Invasion of Ukraine
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 7:12pm
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/1221/1268036-ukraine-russia/" rel="nofollow - Putin warns West of 'military measures' over Ukraine (rte.ie)

Putin warns West of 'military measures' over Ukraine threats


Lads anybody following this sh*t? I mean forget about Covid, Brexit Climate Change etc if this hassle really kicked off I dread to think what could happen in the new yearDisapprove



Replies:
Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Neil Armstrong Neil Armstrong wrote:

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/1221/1268036-ukraine-russia/" rel="nofollow - Putin warns West of 'military measures' over Ukraine (rte.ie)

Putin warns West of 'military measures' over Ukraine threats


Lads anybody following this sh*t? I mean forget about Covid, Brexit Climate Change etc if this hassle really kicked off I dread to think what could happen in the new yearDisapprove


Humnanity reached its peak and has been on a decline for a while now.

The planet is f**ked
There's a virus everywhere
We have Bond villains in charge of Superpower countries
We have people who think a major pandemic is a hoax and also believe the Earth is flat


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Posted By: Borussia
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 7:49pm
Is it time for a YBIG-style panic?
Is there anything to be said for another mass?


Posted By: reddladd
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 9:40pm
As long as it’s over by June and Ukraine win. 

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I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.


Posted By: FrankosHereNow
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 9:48pm
The world is f**ked. Why can’t we all just get along?

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YBIG Quiz Champion 2016, 2017 & 2018.

As You Were
Three in a row


Posted By: EdisonCavani
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 7:37am
Russian TV is talking about nuclear weapons being used on western countries if they intervene. The message is also that Putin has never accepted the outcome of the Cold War and Ukraine is just the start of his plans. Obviously partly propaganda but it is not all hot air either. If this kicks off and the EU are anti Russian on it then we can say goodbye to our foreign gas supplies!


Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 8:48am
Originally posted by EdisonCavani EdisonCavani wrote:

Russian TV is talking about nuclear weapons being used on western countries if they intervene. The message is also that Putin has never accepted the outcome of the Cold War and Ukraine is just the start of his plans. Obviously partly propaganda but it is not all hot air either. If this kicks off and the EU are anti Russian on it then we can say goodbye to our foreign gas supplies!

There's certainly alot more to come from this. Can't blame the Russians, they took over crimea handy enough so can't see why they wouldn't keep pushing their luck. They'll take over the rest of the Ukraine while the west just sit back and look. 

You're right, I don't think it's all hot air either


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Scousers - it’s never their fault

DROGHEDA TIL I DIE!!


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 8:54am
Originally posted by reddladd reddladd wrote:

As long as it’s over by June and Ukraine win. 

If it happens (which experts say is now highly likely) it could be over in days. The firepower the Russians are amassing to the North, East and South of Ukraine would make short work of the Ukrainian defences in no time. 


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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 9:05am
Ireland is seen as a major weak point in Europe's western flank. Its probably part of reason why the Irish government has an agreement in place with the UK which allows the RAF to provide us with air defence. 



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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 10:07am
Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Ireland is seen as a major weak point in Europe's western flank. Its probably part of reason why the Irish government has an agreement in place with the UK which allows the RAF to provide us with air defence. 

Being neutral would do that alright. All the better for it


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

Originally posted by EdisonCavani EdisonCavani wrote:

Russian TV is talking about nuclear weapons being used on western countries if they intervene. The message is also that Putin has never accepted the outcome of the Cold War and Ukraine is just the start of his plans. Obviously partly propaganda but it is not all hot air either. If this kicks off and the EU are anti Russian on it then we can say goodbye to our foreign gas supplies!

There's certainly alot more to come from this. Can't blame the Russians, they took over crimea handy enough so can't see why they wouldn't keep pushing their luck. They'll take over the rest of the Ukraine while the west just sit back and look. 

You're right, I don't think it's all hot air either


If we just allow them to annex the Sudetenland we will have peace in our time


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Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 12:10pm
Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


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Posted By: Paulie
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


I saw this as a kid in the Ambassador. I can confirm that it got a standing ovation. Great movie


Posted By: Jackal
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 3:01pm
Russia sells it's gas to Europe. Be grand.

Russia always uses Kosovo as an example. Why can they leave Serbia but Crimea can't leave Ukraine? 

Bosnia is the one to watch. It's going to kick off there any day.


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Ireland is seen as a major weak point in Europe's western flank. Its probably part of reason why the Irish government has an agreement in place with the UK which allows the RAF to provide us with air defence. 

Being neutral would do that alright. All the better for it
Yeah that worked out well for Denmark 80 odd years ago.

Finland is neutral as well, it hasn't stopped them purchasing 64 F-35 fighter jets recently. 


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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


I saw this as a kid in the Ambassador. I can confirm that it got a standing ovation. Great movie


Were you not in Rocky's corner in Moscow that night?


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Posted By: Paulie
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2021 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


I saw this as a kid in the Ambassador. I can confirm that it got a standing ovation. Great movie


Were you not in Rocky's corner in Moscow that night?


Not for that one. It clashed with youth club night.


Posted By: Drumcondra 69er
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2021 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


I saw this as a kid in the Ambassador. I can confirm that it got a standing ovation. Great movie


Yep, when I saw it in the Ambassador you literally had a cinema full of 13/14 year old lads standing on the seats chanting "ROCKY! ROCKY! ROCKY!" at the end. And I must admit I was party to that chanting. Simpler times


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Blog: http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/" rel="nofollow - A False First XI
Twitter: @afalsefirstxi
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/afalsefirstxi/" rel="nofollow - A False First XI


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2021 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


I saw this as a kid in the Ambassador. I can confirm that it got a standing ovation. Great movie


Were you not in Rocky's corner in Moscow that night?


Not for that one. It clashed with youth club night.


Photographic evidence suggest otherwise

Paulie Rocky GIF - Paulie Rocky Rocky4 GIFs

Breaking Down Every Round of the Balboa-Drago Fight In ROCKY IV - Nerdist

Paulie Rocky GIF - Paulie Rocky Rocky4 - Discover & Share GIFs


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Posted By: Paulie
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2021 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Need Rocky to fight in Moscow this Christmas and end this conflict


On a side note a mate of mine who is about 15 yrs older than me said he saw Rocky IV in Dublin in the cinema when it was released (think it was the Adelphi in Middle Abbey Street) and when Rocky made his speech at the end there was a round of applause in the cinemaLOL


I saw this as a kid in the Ambassador. I can confirm that it got a standing ovation. Great movie


Were you not in Rocky's corner in Moscow that night?


Not for that one. It clashed with youth club night.


Photographic evidence suggest otherwise

Paulie Rocky GIF - Paulie Rocky Rocky4 GIFs

Breaking Down Every Round of the Balboa-Drago Fight In ROCKY IV - Nerdist





I really should not have needed you to join the dots on that for me. I'll be over in the thick thread if anyone is looking.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2021 at 6:22pm
LOL

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Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2021 at 6:48pm
Happy Birthday Paulie.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2021 at 1:18pm
Today is the 30year anniversary of the demise of the Soviet Union. Too early to open a bottle!??


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2021 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Today is the 30year anniversary of the demise of the Soviet Union. Too early to open a bottle!??


It is also the 1st day of the revival if the Soviet Union

Putin Smile GIFs | Tenor




Putin must have based his life on this fella

Every James Bond Villain Ranked Worst To Best – Page 7


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Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2021 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Today is the 30year anniversary of the demise of the Soviet Union. Too early to open a bottle!??
fairly sure it was yesterday? 

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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 12:51pm
Things are seriously kicking off in Kazakhstan, the Presidential Palace is currently on fire. Another geopolitical headache for Vlad.

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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Things are seriously kicking off in Kazakhstan, the Presidential Palace is currently on fire. Another geopolitical headache for Vlad.

... and just like that the president has been deposed. Vlad may have to think twice about going into Ukraine now with this other headache on his border. 


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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Things are seriously kicking off in Kazakhstan, the Presidential Palace is currently on fire. Another geopolitical headache for Vlad.

... and just like that the president has been deposed. Vlad may have to think twice about going into Ukraine now with this other headache on his border. 


Why would Kazakhstan jeopardise his plan for world domination?


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Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Things are seriously kicking off in Kazakhstan, the Presidential Palace is currently on fire. Another geopolitical headache for Vlad.

... and just like that the president has been deposed. Vlad may have to think twice about going into Ukraine now with this other headache on his border. 


Why would Kazakhstan jeopardise his plan for world domination?
its the 9th largest country in the world by area. Be a nice start place to start. 

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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2022 at 12:27pm
America are evacuating their staff from the US Embassy in Ukraine.

Lovely.  We have General Orlov aka Putin bringing us into WW3.

Loving this decade so far


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Posted By: baresi41
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2022 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

America are evacuating their staff from the US Embassy in Ukraine.

Lovely.  We have General Orlov aka Putin bringing us into WW3.

Loving this decade so far
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-21/u-s-weighs-evacuating-diplomats-family-members-from-ukraine" rel="nofollow - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-21/u-s-weighs-evacuating-diplomats-family-members-from-ukraine


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FRANCO BARESI: Always supporting the green brigade


Posted By: zizu Kilbane
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 10:13am
The Russians are planning to conduct missile tests 240k off the coast of Cork next month, within Irelands Economic Waters.

We could have a diplomatic issue on our hands


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"Sometimes, sh*t happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who ya gonna call?"


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 10:38am
The Irish political response to this will be very interesting. Watch out for the ‘whataboutery’ and appeals to other conflicts as a way of deflecting.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 10:48am
Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

The Russians are planning to conduct missile tests 240k off the coast of Cork next month, within Irelands Economic Waters.

We could have a diplomatic issue on our hands

Whats Paddy going to do?  Our sole  national security response is to go over to their ships and smack the side of it with a plastic hammer with the slogan "Hammered by the Irish" on it


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Posted By: King_Kenny
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

The Russians are planning to conduct missile tests 240k off the coast of Cork next month, within Irelands Economic Waters.

We could have a diplomatic issue on our hands

Whats Paddy going to do?  Our sole  national security response is to go over to their ships and smack the side of it with a plastic hammer with the slogan "Hammered by the Irish" on it
Fear not TJ the army council will soon be governing.you might have to do national service though.


Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

The Russians are planning to conduct missile tests 240k off the coast of Cork next month, within Irelands Economic Waters.

We could have a diplomatic issue on our hands

Whats Paddy going to do?  Our sole  national security response is to go over to their ships and smack the side of it with a plastic hammer with the slogan "Hammered by the Irish" on it

LOL


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Giros,glue sniffing,dogs on ropes
But I see people with dreams and hopes


Posted By: Bandwagon
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

The Russians are planning to conduct missile tests 240k off the coast of Cork next month, within Irelands Economic Waters.

We could have a diplomatic issue on our hands

Whats Paddy going to do?  Our sole  national security response is to go over to their ships and smack the side of it with a plastic hammer with the slogan "Hammered by the Irish" on it


I read yesterday we don't even have a radar system to monitor them!

On another note, Russian far-right politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky said on Russian state TV during the week

“Stop flying to New York - this city will soon no longer exist.

“It’s time for events that no-one expects, that seemed a fantasy….

"The great America, the rich Europe - it all can stop….

“With some part of Europe disappearing… Kyiv, Warsaw, Riga, Tallinn and London.

“Not all Europe should be destroyed - but London (yes).

“Let the Scots, Irish, Welsh live."

We're grand, comrades.



Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

The Russians are planning to conduct missile tests 240k off the coast of Cork next month, within Irelands Economic Waters.

We could have a diplomatic issue on our hands
From what I read this is fairly standard affair,it's just that its Russians that's causing problems. If it was the French/Germans/Americans we wouldn't hear about it.


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 11:02pm
Interesting article here BTW, telling the story somewhat from the Russian perspective. History has fairly f**ked them to be fair, you can kinda understand their paranoia. Although most of it beign 70+ years old.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2022/0123/1275039-russia-ukraine-nato-explained/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2022/0123/1275039-russia-ukraine-nato-explained/



Posted By: zizu Kilbane
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 11:33am
This is going to grow legs over the next few days/ weeks.

Russia has deliberately picked the sea off the Irish coast for these war games. Why exactly is still open to speculation but considering the wider geopolitical context at the moment, it's almost certain that the timing here isn't a coincidence.

It's an open secret within global security circles that our Defence Forces are a joke. Don't think for a second that this isn't something that will be leveraged by Putin, if he can exploit it at the expense of NATO/UK/US he will. With weak heads in 10 Downing Street & The White House at the moment, and Merkel having stepped down, he might think this is his time to make his move westwards.

Maybe trying to divert as much attention to the North Atlantic by creating a continental diplomatic incident, will give him the cover to move on the Ukraine?



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"Sometimes, sh*t happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who ya gonna call?"


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Interesting article here BTW, telling the story somewhat from the Russian perspective. History has fairly f**ked them to be fair, you can kinda understand their paranoia. Although most of it beign 70+ years old.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2022/0123/1275039-russia-ukraine-nato-explained/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2022/0123/1275039-russia-ukraine-nato-explained/


That’s why I’m unsure how much of an impact it is making in this day and age. Russia has gradually become more isolationist over time and has been forging its links with friendly forces in former soviet bloc countries. Perhaps it influences the rhetoric, but there has been a gradual expansion from Putin’s Russia, which puts them on a collision course with NATO. But given the creeping isolationism, I think they are more than happy to have that conflict.


Posted By: Dalymount79
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 7:12pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42362500" rel="nofollow -  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42362500

Interesting with the naval exercises planned.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 7:22pm






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Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 10:54am
DON'T PANIC... the castletownbere flotilla is coming to the rescue. the russian admirals will be quaking in their boots.

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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: 9fingers
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 2:59pm
Military & Garda helicopters in the air over around the Airport (3in total) 


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 3:12pm
The exercises in Cork have certainly raised a few issues around military neutrality and indeed Ireland’s capacities in terms of its defence abilities.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Military & Garda helicopters in the air over around the Airport (3in total) 


That'll teach 'em


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Posted By: 9fingers
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Military & Garda helicopters in the air over around the Airport (3in total) 


That'll teach 'em
Yeah. 
I think it implies that foreign military/defence have arrived. 


Posted By: 9fingers
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The exercises in Cork have certainly raised a few issues around military neutrality and indeed Ireland’s capacities in terms of its defence abilities.
Yeah we’ve not been neutral for quite some time. We just sold ourselves out so we didn’t have to fund our own military. 


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 3:37pm
And from what I understand, neutrality tends to come with strong resourcing of defence. 

I think there is a genuine debate to be had about neutrality. 


Posted By: Dalymount79
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 7:04pm
things seems to be hotting up with the latest non-Ukraine nationals warnings to leave the country - one wonders what intelligence they have that media haven’t heard yet.

The drug test failure of the 15yo seems to this cynic, a false flag made for home consumption propaganda event from Putin.


Posted By: Artie Ziff
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 9:33pm
They should cave and give the Russian's some concessions. If Russia plans on a lightening strike and quickly take control of Kyiv, it will fail and there will be war lines across civilian areas and will be terrible. The Ukrainians will not roll over. 

That scenario and the west been dragged into a bigger conflict by arming the Ukrainians is too much of a risk to take. 

Russia's bullying tactics are based on their long term beef of Nato encroaching onto it's borders, so tell the Ukraine goverment to f**k off and you are barred from any plans to join Nato for 10 years and try and work something out with Russia. 

Putin needs to save face, either war or win some concessions. 


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It would damage this forums' reputation


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 12:12pm
That would set a Precedent and on the expiry of the 10 year period Russia would repeat the aggression in order to engineer the outcome.


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

They should cave and give the Russian's some concessions. If Russia plans on a lightening strike and quickly take control of Kyiv, it will fail and there will be war lines across civilian areas and will be terrible. The Ukrainians will not roll over. 

That scenario and the west been dragged into a bigger conflict by arming the Ukrainians is too much of a risk to take. 

Russia's bullying tactics are based on their long term beef of Nato encroaching onto it's borders, so tell the Ukraine goverment to f**k off and you are barred from any plans to join Nato for 10 years and try and work something out with Russia. 

Putin needs to save face, either war or win some concessions. 


They should give them the Sudetenland and that will keep them happy.




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Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 8:01pm
From the makers of Covid 19 comes a tale of World War 3.


This poxy decade is the pits.


Ze Germans sending their Chancellor to Moscow on Tuesday to try to talk Zorin out of WW3


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Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

From the makers of Covid 19 comes a tale of World War 3.


This poxy decade is the pits.


Ze Germans sending their Chancellor to Moscow on Tuesday to try to talk Zorin out of WW3

Zorin is German


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

From the makers of Covid 19 comes a tale of World War 3.


This poxy decade is the pits.


Ze Germans sending their Chancellor to Moscow on Tuesday to try to talk Zorin out of WW3

Zorin is German


He was ex KGB


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Posted By: Artie Ziff
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

That would set a Precedent and on the expiry of the 10 year period Russia would repeat the aggression in order to engineer the outcome.

A lot can happen in 10 years. You can renegotiate or better still have the Russian's closer to the world circle. The worst scenario been played out of Ukraine been turned into another Syria would be sickening. 




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It would damage this forums' reputation


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 10:30pm
Some craic this.  Come out of a nightmare 2 years straight into WW3.
Let the good times roll baby.

Time to take that DeLorean for a spin on the M50.


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Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 2:14am
Mr. Burns I think we can trust the President of Russia

Mr Burns: Now give it back.

Putin: What back?

Mr. Burns (Sigh) Ukraine
Los Simpsons Fidel Castro (Castellano) on Make a GIF



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Insert pathetic Baldrick post below


Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

From the makers of Covid 19 comes a tale of World War 3.


This poxy decade is the pits.


Ze Germans sending their Chancellor to Moscow on Tuesday to try to talk Zorin out of WW3

He was still German (East German) 
Zorin is German


He was ex KGB


Posted By: Bandwagon
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Mr. Burns I think we can trust the President of Russia

Mr Burns: Now give it back.

Putin: What back?

Mr. Burns (Sigh) Ukraine
Los Simpsons Fidel Castro (Castellano) on Make a GIF



I think this scene is far more accurate

Russian Representative:
The Soviet Union will be pleased to offer amnesty to your wayward vessel.

United States Representative:
Soviet Union? I thought you guys broke up.

Russian Representative:
Nyet! That's what we wanted you to think, hahahahahaha!





Posted By: t_rAndy
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 9:17am
It is ridiculous how much Europe and US are stirring the pot on this one. It's coming from western politics and media versus Ukraine and Russia. 

Ukraine have constantly called for calm. 
Russia have said they are not going to invade. 
It's reported as no more than a military exercise in Russia. 

At the end of the day, in my opinion it's a show of force, Russia don't want NATO to expand further and be within 500km of Moscow. Which is for me understandable. Russia are generally the ones who have been invaded in past wars and have suffered enormously. 
They just want to protect their country and having this major military force that has been expanding eastwards the past decades that would be within 500km of the capital if they get Ukraine, that is a problem that is going to stoke tensions. Having the buffer of Eastern Europe is a good thing in my opinion and you can definitely argue that it is NATO's expansion eastwards which is actually the act of aggression

We were giving out about a military exercise 250 miles off Cork. Imagine the next time it was 200 miles and the next time after that 50 miles. That's basically what has been happening to Russia with NATO's expansion efforts.




Posted By: Borussia
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 9:18am
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

It is ridiculous how much Europe and US are stirring the pot on this one. It's coming from western politics and media versus Ukraine and Russia. 

Ukraine have constantly called for calm. 
Russia have said they are not going to invade. 
It's reported as no more than a military exercise in Russia. 

At the end of the day, in my opinion it's a show of force, Russia don't want NATO to expand further and be within 500km of Moscow. Which is for me understandable. Russia are generally the ones who have been invaded in past wars and have suffered enormously. 
They just want to protect their country and having this major military force has been expanding eastwards and would be within 500km of the capital if they get Ukraine, that is a problem that is going to stoke tensions. Having the buffer of Eastern Europe is a good thing in my opinion and you can definitely argue that it is NATO's expansion eastwards which is actually the act of aggression

We were giving out about a military exercise 250 miles off Cork. Imagine the next time it was 200 miles and the next time after that 50 miles. That's basically what has been happening to Russia with NATO's expansion efforts.



Russian literally invaded part of Ukraine a few years ago. 


Posted By: t_rAndy
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 9:27am
Yes but I would liken that to our army entering the North and taking back nationlaist towns that consider themselves Irish and not British that were being forced to become British. 

There were only 2 or 3 deaths, wasn't a full scale Military assault. 

Not saying I agree with them invading or with supplying weapons and the country is hugely corrupt so they are not shining lights or anything, not my point. 
However, I can empathize with the situation that they are seeing these actions as a way to protect themselves and people who consider themselves Russia/Soviet. I think we as Irish should even be more empathetic to the situation given our history. 





Posted By: Borussia
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 9:33am
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

Yes but I would liken that to our army entering the North and taking back nationlaist towns that consider themselves Irish and not British that were being forced to become British. 

There were only 2 or 3 deaths, wasn't a full scale Military assault. 

Not saying I agree with them invading or with supplying weapons and the country is hugely corrupt so they are not shining lights or anything, not my point. 
However, I can empathize with the situation that they are seeing these actions as a way to protect themselves and people who consider themselves Russia/Soviet. I think we as Irish should even be more empathetic to the situation given our history. 




There is literally conflict going on to this today. Your "hot take" on this situation seems way off the mark. 


Posted By: t_rAndy
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

Yes but I would liken that to our army entering the North and taking back nationlaist towns that consider themselves Irish and not British that were being forced to become British. 

There were only 2 or 3 deaths, wasn't a full scale Military assault. 

Not saying I agree with them invading or with supplying weapons and the country is hugely corrupt so they are not shining lights or anything, not my point. 
However, I can empathize with the situation that they are seeing these actions as a way to protect themselves and people who consider themselves Russia/Soviet. I think we as Irish should even be more empathetic to the situation given our history. 




There is literally conflict going on to this today. Your "hot take" on this situation seems way off the mark. 

Sorry I thought you meant the crimean annexation 2014 which was the official invasion.

The ongoing movement and supplying of rebels yes this has caused much more loss but it is not really considered as as official warfare. 

I'm not an expert but having listened and watched various docs and debates on the issue, for me I just feel that a lot of the current noise is rather caused by the west politics and media. They should just make some concessions towards their expansion east. That might even help bring an end to the separatist movement in the east of Ukraine. 





Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 10:57am
The “NATO expansion” mantra is a nonsense with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania all members for years. And the situation may be different if Belarus wasn’t a ‘soft’ satellite state which is overwhelmingly pro Russia. Ukraine is also a sovereign state, which in turn is entitled not to be manipulated through power play by it larger neighbour.

 


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

It is ridiculous how much Europe and US are stirring the pot on this one. It's coming from western politics and media versus Ukraine and Russia. 

Ukraine have constantly called for calm. 
Russia have said they are not going to invade. 
It's reported as no more than a military exercise in Russia. 

At the end of the day, in my opinion it's a show of force, Russia don't want NATO to expand further and be within 500km of Moscow. Which is for me understandable. Russia are generally the ones who have been invaded in past wars and have suffered enormously. 
They just want to protect their country and having this major military force has been expanding eastwards and would be within 500km of the capital if they get Ukraine, that is a problem that is going to stoke tensions. Having the buffer of Eastern Europe is a good thing in my opinion and you can definitely argue that it is NATO's expansion eastwards which is actually the act of aggression

We were giving out about a military exercise 250 miles off Cork. Imagine the next time it was 200 miles and the next time after that 50 miles. That's basically what has been happening to Russia with NATO's expansion efforts.



Russian literally invaded part of Ukraine a few years ago. 
Read a good book on this a few years back (Prisoners of Geography). Moscow has no natural defences, no mountains, rivers, seas to protect it from invasion. The main way Russia has protected itself from it's enemies is by having a huge distance between its borders and its capitals. So any invading army needs such long supply lines, it invariably fails. It's why Siberia was so important in defending itself from the Mongols, Ottamans, and more recently Greeks, Swedes, Napoleon and the Germans in both world wars.

Russia hates the idea of it's enemies being closer to Moscow that it needs to be. It's a very historic way of looking at it, given that most wars are fought through the air now, but that's their psyche


Posted By: t_rAndy
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 11:39am
Again no expert and it is a hot take but I think what is also a but different with Ukraine is that the people are so close from an ethnic and cultural perspective. So 'losing Ukraine to the west' too is a hard pill to swallow.

I think making some sort of concession that Ukraine are also happy with is the way to go and I would say will likely happen. Can't see a war breaking out full scale. Which is why I think the hysteria coming from Johnson and all is just that, hysteria 



Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 11:49am
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

Again no expert and it is a hot take but I think what is also a but different with Ukraine is that the people are so close from an ethnic and cultural perspective. So 'losing Ukraine to the west' too is a hard pill to swallow.




That’s not entirely correct, and if it was taken to a logical conclusion could run the risk of exculpating a lot of imperial and colonial activity. For a start the Ukrainian language is years old and was codified in the 1800s, with Taras Shevchenko largely responsible for that.


Posted By: Green Cockade
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 12:19pm
Ukraine will not be elected into NATO. USA and UK will not spill a drop of their own forces' blood in pursuit of such an expansion after the experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan. The Russian government is corrupt, authoritarian and dangerous but Ukraine is divided and the geo-politics of the region are complicated and not well understood in the West. There is currently a lot of posturing going on and who knows what will transpire. Probably a deal to be done before much happens.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 12:24pm
Geo-political complications don’t impact the sovereign nature of Ukraine and it’s capacities to make decisions on its own behalf, in spite of a large post-imperial entity attempting to strongarm an outcome using its own muscle and threats.


Posted By: Darraghn92
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The “NATO expansion” mantra is a nonsense with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania all members for years. And the situation may be different if Belarus wasn’t a ‘soft’ satellite state which is overwhelmingly pro Russia. Ukraine is also a sovereign state, which in turn is entitled not to be manipulated through power play by it larger neighbour.

 

Ukraine is more geographically strategic for Russia (access to the Black Sea, home of their strategically important Black Sea Fleet, and has a large southern border with Russia) compared to Estonia and Latvia and Russia has historically been invaded through Ukraine and Belarus


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 12:54pm
But that can simply be explained as post war paranoia, and no reason for them to advance as they did in 2014, or set up in the hostile fashion that they have at the moment.


Posted By: Darraghn92
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 1:11pm
It might not matter to governments in the West, but for Russia it's an existential threat. NATO assurances aren't going to change that viewpoint, especially considering they've ignored any assurances they gave of expanding eastwards since German reunification. It fuels their distrust of the West


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Ukraine will not be elected into NATO. USA and UK will not spill a drop of their own forces' blood in pursuit of such an expansion after the experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan. The Russian government is corrupt, authoritarian and dangerous but Ukraine is divided and the geo-politics of the region are complicated and not well understood in the West. There is currently a lot of posturing going on and who knows what will transpire. Probably a deal to be done before much happens.
Correct, if Ukraine was in Nato in 2014, Nato would have been duty-bound to engage in a war to defend a member. It suited everyone to let that one slip


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

But that can simply be explained as post war paranoia, and no reason for them to advance as they did in 2014, or set up in the hostile fashion that they have at the moment.
In 1600's Poland invaded Russia
In 1700's Sweden invaded Russia
In 1800's France invaded Russia
in 1900's Germany invaded Russia

Now in 2000's they see the west encroaching on Russia. You can see why they're paranoid.


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 1:44pm
But there is a difference been “go it alone” nations invading and sovereign nations joining international defence organisations in a post WW2 landscape.

But what makes sense is Putin and co leveraging that to garner support for their administration in a sort of “us against the world” mentality, while also willingly provoking the west.


Posted By: irish_major
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 1:58pm
Invasion threat looks to be over at this point. 

Putin will be back for more soon no doubt as he achieved his goal of pissing off the entire world with these actions. 


-------------
Here we go again


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 2:02pm
And if reports are correct it’s not even a full withdrawal, just a retreat, with much left behind.

It’s be an interesting “war game” which I think has also smoked out geo-political mentalities and all to Putin’s benefit.


Posted By: Dalymount79
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

And if reports are correct it’s not even a full withdrawal, just a retreat, with much left behind.

It’s be an interesting “war game” which I think has also smoked out geo-political mentalities and all to Putin’s benefit.
barely a retreat - just moving assets around.


Posted By: Green Cockade
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 3:09pm
A covert deal to keep Ukraine out of NATO may well have been done by now. Paranoia is a factor in this drama just as it was when Kennedy reacted to the installation of Soviet nuclear missiles in neighbouring Cuba back in the 60s-understandably so. One major weakness re sanctions threatened by the West is that Putin allies are deeply integrated into the UK and enmeshed within Conservative Party power structures. London grad, as the capital is widely dubbed, is awash with laundered Russian money.


Posted By: Badgersboys9
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

A covert deal to keep Ukraine out of NATO may well have been done by now. Paranoia is a factor in this drama just as it was when Kennedy reacted to the installation of Soviet nuclear missiles in neighbouring Cuba back in the 60s-understandably so. One major weakness re sanctions threatened by the West is that Putin allies are deeply integrated into the UK and enmeshed within Conservative Party power structures. London grad, as the capital is widely dubbed, is awash with laundered Russian money.

As is Dublin. 118bn was funnelled from Ireland to Russia between 2005 and 2017.


Posted By: Artie Ziff
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

A covert deal to keep Ukraine out of NATO may well have been done by now. Paranoia is a factor in this drama just as it was when Kennedy reacted to the installation of Soviet nuclear missiles in neighbouring Cuba back in the 60s-understandably so. One major weakness re sanctions threatened by the West is that Putin allies are deeply integrated into the UK and enmeshed within Conservative Party power structures. London grad, as the capital is widely dubbed, is awash with laundered Russian money.

The globalisation and moving of assets into real estate all around the world means it would make another world war less likely. There wouldn't be a lot of Russians happy about bombing their own piggy banks in London. 


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It would damage this forums' reputation


Posted By: eireland
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2022 at 2:47am
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

It is ridiculous how much Europe and US are stirring the pot on this one. It's coming from western politics and media versus Ukraine and Russia. 

Ukraine have constantly called for calm. 
Russia have said they are not going to invade. 
It's reported as no more than a military exercise in Russia. 

At the end of the day, in my opinion it's a show of force, Russia don't want NATO to expand further and be within 500km of Moscow. Which is for me understandable. Russia are generally the ones who have been invaded in past wars and have suffered enormously. 
They just want to protect their country and having this major military force that has been expanding eastwards the past decades that would be within 500km of the capital if they get Ukraine, that is a problem that is going to stoke tensions. Having the buffer of Eastern Europe is a good thing in my opinion and you can definitely argue that it is NATO's expansion eastwards which is actually the act of aggression

We were giving out about a military exercise 250 miles off Cork. Imagine the next time it was 200 miles and the next time after that 50 miles. That's basically what has been happening to Russia with NATO's expansion efforts.



They have 6k nukes. They don't need to sh*t anymore to protect their borders. This isn't the medieval times. 


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2022 at 2:56pm
They're up to something. Air raid sirens blaring in Donetsk and the local tin pot leader has ordered the evacuation of all Russian civilians (roughly 2 million) in the region back to Russia. The tin pot leader next door in luhansk is doing the same. 

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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 9:36am
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229

I think O'Toole is spot on here. 


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Giros,glue sniffing,dogs on ropes
But I see people with dreams and hopes


Posted By: More Anne
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 11:39am
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229

I think O'Toole is spot on here. 
Putin does not have a point. Putin is a dictator, mafia don and a war criminal who wants to destroy democracy everywhere he can.


Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by More Anne More Anne wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229

I think O'Toole is spot on here. 
Putin does not have a point. Putin is a dictator, mafia don and a war criminal who wants to destroy democracy everywhere he can.

I'm under no illusions about Putin but even if you had a reformist moderate like Gorbachov in power, the Russians would still have legitimate concerns about the expansion of a military bloc right up to their borders. 

I know Nato expansion isn't the same threat as Napoleon or Hitler on the march in Russia but you have to acknowledge their history where they have been invaded  and try and have some degree of empathy for their position. 

Any Russian leader no matter how progressive, moderate or conservative they might be would have the same concerns especially in regards to Nato expansion in bordering countries. 


-------------
Giros,glue sniffing,dogs on ropes
But I see people with dreams and hopes


Posted By: More Anne
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by More Anne More Anne wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229

I think O'Toole is spot on here. 
Putin does not have a point. Putin is a dictator, mafia don and a war criminal who wants to destroy democracy everywhere he can.

I'm under no illusions about Putin but even if you had a reformist moderate like Gorbachov in power, the Russians would still have legitimate concerns about the expansion of a military bloc right up to their borders. 

I know Nato expansion isn't the same threat as Napoleon or Hitler on the march in Russia but you have to acknowledge their history where they have been invaded  and try and have some degree of empathy for their position. 

Any Russian leader no matter how progressive, moderate or conservative they might be would have the same concerns especially in regards to Nato expansion in bordering countries. 
They do not "have a point". The worth of NATO is being demonstrated in clear terms right now. What eastern European country wouldn't want to be in NATO when the alternative is invasion by Russia? And believe me that is what Russia will do to any formerly Soviet country not in NATO. And it will destroy democracy in the west too if it is let.

Nobody in their right mind has any sympathy for the Russian "position". The Russian "position" is the same as the "position" of Hitler in 1939. Russia is a nation drunk on its own exquisite self pity. It is a mafia state and a dictatorship. It is the closest thing we have seen to Nazi Germany in the last 77 years. 

The only "concern" Putin has is that his murderous mafia dictatorship continue without any challenge from anywhere, inside or outside Russia. The existence of a free and increasingly prosperous democracy in the largest ex-Soviet country, on his doorstep, threatens his murderous dictatorship, because it highlights that Russians are under the jackboot and that Putin is an appalling leader and criminal who run his own country into the ground.






Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 2:12pm
It’s bizarre that this situation is helping people understand the idea of geo-political complexity in hostile situations. At the end of the day the Russian’s own actions in this instance has provoked a reaction. 


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 5:55pm
Also, it seems more common for people to point to NATO assurances etc, which are not documented and would be contrary to requests etc made by the likes of Yeltsin after the fall of the wall. There is something of a “Mandela Effect” about this, and as the unrest in the region has grown it has become an ahistorical point of reference.


Posted By: planning
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2022 at 10:57pm
If Putin really wants to invade his neighbours, he isn't going to be deterred by possible sanctions. Without Western troops on the ground, the Ukraine army has no hope of resisting the advance. 

It would be good to see a few protests doing the rounds against the supposedly imminent threat of war, as there was for the lraq and other conflicts. But there's been no such thing. Maybe a few hundred thousand innocent European deaths in Ukraine, is not considered as important as a few hundred thousand innocent deaths in Asia and the Middle East. 


Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2022 at 10:16am
Originally posted by More Anne More Anne wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by More Anne More Anne wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229 - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-may-be-a-thug-but-he-does-have-a-point-1.4804229

I think O'Toole is spot on here. 
Putin does not have a point. Putin is a dictator, mafia don and a war criminal who wants to destroy democracy everywhere he can.

I'm under no illusions about Putin but even if you had a reformist moderate like Gorbachov in power, the Russians would still have legitimate concerns about the expansion of a military bloc right up to their borders. 

I know Nato expansion isn't the same threat as Napoleon or Hitler on the march in Russia but you have to acknowledge their history where they have been invaded  and try and have some degree of empathy for their position. 

Any Russian leader no matter how progressive, moderate or conservative they might be would have the same concerns especially in regards to Nato expansion in bordering countries. 
They do not "have a point". The worth of NATO is being demonstrated in clear terms right now. What eastern European country wouldn't want to be in NATO when the alternative is invasion by Russia? And believe me that is what Russia will do to any formerly Soviet country not in NATO. And it will destroy democracy in the west too if it is let.

Nobody in their right mind has any sympathy for the Russian "position". The Russian "position" is the same as the "position" of Hitler in 1939. Russia is a nation drunk on its own exquisite self pity. It is a mafia state and a dictatorship. It is the closest thing we have seen to Nazi Germany in the last 77 years. 

The only "concern" Putin has is that his murderous mafia dictatorship continue without any challenge from anywhere, inside or outside Russia. The existence of a free and increasingly prosperous democracy in the largest ex-Soviet country, on his doorstep, threatens his murderous dictatorship, because it highlights that Russians are under the jackboot and that Putin is an appalling leader and criminal who run his own country into the ground.


You're missing my point. 

I'm not defending Putin's intentions or position. 

There is a clear precedent for Russian concerns as the country has been invaded repeatedly throughout history. 

I can understand the Baltic states and any other bordering states wanting to join Nato when they were ruled under by the authoritarian Soviet Union but it is not the right thing to do as it will be seen  by the Russians as a total provocation. Any Russian leader could not possibly accept a hostile military bloc (as they would see it) encircling their country. 

You can make the argument Nato is a defensive pact to check Russian aggression but the Russians will not see it like that and there some degree of reason for their fears. 

Russia also has significant leverage with the supply of gas so it's not in Europe's interest for Russia and Nato to be sabre rattling at each other in this way. 

I think the best solution which would allay both Russia's fear of Nato expansion and the bordering states's fears of a Moscow puppet government would be to have a French/German EU led initiative with independent monitoring of those countries elections, protections on the millions of Russians living in those countries against any type of ultra nationalist discrimination. This would help avoid a repeat of the Ukraine 2014 coup and subsequent annexation of Crimea. 

The fact the Ukrainian president himself isn't singing from the same hymn sheet as the Americans and Western media regarding an imminent invasion is a bit of a red flag (excuse the pun) for me. 

Ironically the past invaders the French and Germans who have that trade relationship with Russia would be key in setting up an initiative like it. Macron seems to have a cool head and the right approach in dialogue with Russia regarding this Ukraine crisis. 


-------------
Giros,glue sniffing,dogs on ropes
But I see people with dreams and hopes


Posted By: More Anne
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2022 at 10:50am
Irish MUFC you say it is not the right thing for the Baltic countries to join NATO as it will be seen by the Russians as provocation?!

Who cares what the hell the Russians think?! Should we have cared what the Nazis thought in the 1930s?

Why don't you start caring what Ukrainians and people in the Baltic countries and other ex-Soviet countries think?

We have seen what the Russians think. They invaded Ukraine. They invaded Georgia. They've now effectively annexed Belarus. They're about to expand that invasion. They think they should be able to rule the roost in every ex-Soviet country - and beyond. Putin wants to destroy these countries. You cannot negotiate with that. You have to face him down and defeat him.

None of this about NATO. This is about a regime with a Nazi like ideology. That anybody in free democratic countries would think that Putin "has a point" is mind boggling. 









Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2022 at 11:15am
But Muff, that would defeat the purpose of sovereignty if third party relationships determined the outcomes for sovereign nations. And this would come against the backdrop of Russia recognising the “separatists” that in reality are unionists/imperialist.

Russia also has the choice to engage diplomatically, but instead prefers to leverage military muscle and recognising their pals in certain regions of former Soviet states, and this plays to the gallery as far as Putin is concerned, and also has the effect of raising criticism of NATO even though it’s Russia who are the provocative ones.


Posted By: eireland
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2022 at 3:05pm
Wouldn't it be wiser for Ukraine to join the EU and leave it at that. Russia isn't going to invade a country who's part of the EU. 


Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2022 at 3:10pm
They cant just join the EU.


Posted By: eireland
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2022 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

They cant just join the EU.

They were due to join by 2024. Why Stoke Russian fires trying to join nato. Focus on getting into the eu first and then think about Nato. 

Another thing I don't get, if the Americans and Europeans care so much about stopping a Russian invasion in Europe, why don't they station their armies in Ukraine to defend it. Russian wouldn't invade if there were 500k American and European troops positioned over the border. 

The Americans especially have no problem sending millions of troops to countries they've no business invading but when it comes to defending a country like Ukraine who need help they've no backbone whatsoever. 



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