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OohAah... 
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
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 Posted: 6 hours 23 minutes ago at 9:43pm |
 Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians couldve Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians arguably were worse?
Just to add a bit of meat
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That’s not really a question. The Russians were totally worse. An easy example is Belarus, which geographically would be advantageous to control. The truth is, thanks to Lukashenko they don’t have to worry. Why couldn’t Russia accept the democratic will of the people in 2013 and let them live peacefully, as was effectively mandated by Budapest.
And the Ted Galen Carpenter article doesn’t add to what we have discussed already. Although I found it amusing he self references to make his point. I wonder if the Donkey will be in to criticise the use of an article from a think tank that was heavily linked to the Koch brothers, conservative america, and right wing libertarianism.
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And that's why it's a perfect example of a view from another side. The more diverse backgrounds are the closer to the truth we can get to Is it not okay to align differently to the western worlds politics as in Belarus?
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3402
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Posted: 6 hours 21 minutes ago at 9:45pm |
eireland wrote:
There are plenty of articles on the matter but you should do your research. I'm happy to allow you play the useful idiot for Russia. You clearly enjoy the role so I won't end your fantasy. |
Just cos you don't like my viewpoint does not mean I'm a parrots for Russia
I shared 1narticle from cnn earlier to back my point. You shared nothing. You have no basis
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Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
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Points: 10646
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Posted: 6 hours 13 minutes ago at 9:53pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians couldve Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians arguably were worse?
Just to add a bit of meat
|
That’s not really a question. The Russians were totally worse. An easy example is Belarus, which geographically would be advantageous to control. The truth is, thanks to Lukashenko they don’t have to worry. Why couldn’t Russia accept the democratic will of the people in 2013 and let them live peacefully, as was effectively mandated by Budapest.
And the Ted Galen Carpenter article doesn’t add to what we have discussed already. Although I found it amusing he self references to make his point. I wonder if the Donkey will be in to criticise the use of an article from a think tank that was heavily linked to the Koch brothers, conservative america, and right wing libertarianism.
|
And that's why it's a perfect example of a view from another side. The more diverse backgrounds are the closer to the truth we can get to Is it not okay to align differently to the western worlds politics as in Belarus? |
Belarus can align itself as it wishes. On the other hand, so does Ukraine, without Russia flexing its muscle to engender outcomes.
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eireland
Ray Houghton
Joined: 12 Feb 2016
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Posted: 5 hours 7 minutes ago at 10:59pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
There are plenty of articles on the matter but you should do your research. I'm happy to allow you play the useful idiot for Russia. You clearly enjoy the role so I won't end your fantasy. |
Just cos you don't like my viewpoint does not mean I'm a parrots for Russia
I shared 1narticle from cnn earlier to back my point. You shared nothing. You have no basis |
Nothing stopping you googling what the interest rate is in Russia, what inflation is, what their currency value, the labour shortage, their ageing population, their budget deficit. The increased costs of exporting, the drop in their oil and gas exports. It's all a simple search away. For a lad who talks so much about this surely you'd want to educate yourself?
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