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Points: 34905 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 8:50am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by tonyjaa tonyjaa wrote:

Anthony Joseph
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UPDATE: Celtic have rejected a £450,000 bid from an unnamed English Premier League club for attacker Rocco Vata.
It’s understood the offer included add-ons and a sell-on clause.
Celtic would be due £343,000 in compensation if he signs a pre-contract in January


_
Pity he doesn't sign a contract and stay on
This will be Forrests last season & I can see other wide attackers move on in Jan/next summer and he would get his chances but appears his dad is pushing for a big move elsewhere for alot more wages

They'll just sign more sh*te from around the world and not play him. Like they always do. Vata senior is probably smart enough to see that. It's an easy decision, go elsewhere and have a shot at first team football at a good level or stay at Celtic and be the next Luca Connell, rotting away doing nothing until he's 22.


I agree that he should’ve gotten more chances - and I’d like to see him get a few more - but tbf it’s not like he’s looked amazing any time he’s played. There’s this narrative that Celtic has treated Irish players very badly and that it’s a bad place for youth development (and, yes, maybe it could well be better) but a lot of the support for this narrative had come from people that haven’t seen much of these lads at all. 

Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs LOL The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence.

You could say the same for any player that fails to make through at a 'big' club.
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Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs LOL The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence.


Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. 
 So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??


I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. 


They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it.

None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.

They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,

Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.



Edited by horsebox - 01 Sep 2023 at 8:57am
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Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs LOL The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence.


Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. 
 So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??


I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. 


They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it.

None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.

They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,

Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.


The concept of actually developing players to help them become good enough is , of course, completely lost on the club. Which brings us back to Vata, Doak and anyone else with talent and ambition wanting out.
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Here is my theory on why Celtic or Rangers for that matter never really bring through youngsters that much. Both teams have to win every game almost to outdo each other. You have to win every game to try and win the league. A loss for one of them and its like the end of the world in Glasgow. You cannot really experiment in Cup games either as again any kind of loss and your doomed. Its constant pressure to win almost every game if not actually every game so the managers cannot really experiment much. 
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It's pretty much that combined with a lack of a suitable structure and depth of talent for developing young players in Scotland outside of first team football. But it's for Celtic to figure out how to work around those issues, and they have failed miserably at that.
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Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs LOL The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence.


Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. 
 So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??


I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. 



They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it.

None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.

They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,

Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.


 The concept of actually developing players to help them become good enough is , of course, completely lost on the club. Which brings us back to Vata, Doak and anyone else with talent and ambition wanting out.

At every single club in the world - the club will try and develop their own players - the vast majority will probably never get a chance for a number of reasons , not good enough, better players ahead of them etc...

The bigger and more successful the club, the harder it gets. And a lot of those players will leave without ever getting a minute on the pitch, and again, most will go on to have reasonably successful careers with other clubs, probably at lesser teams or in lower divisions.
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Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

Here is my theory on why Celtic or Rangers for that matter never really bring through youngsters that much. Both teams have to win every game almost to outdo each other. You have to win every game to try and win the league. A loss for one of them and its like the end of the world in Glasgow. You cannot really experiment in Cup games either as again any kind of loss and your doomed. Its constant pressure to win almost every game if not actually every game so the managers cannot really experiment much. 

Exactly. Unless you’re extremely talented, it’s more or less impossible to make the breakthrough at any club where they have to win the league each year. 
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Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

Here is my theory on why Celtic or Rangers for that matter never really bring through youngsters that much. Both teams have to win every game almost to outdo each other. You have to win every game to try and win the league. A loss for one of them and its like the end of the world in Glasgow. You cannot really experiment in Cup games either as again any kind of loss and your doomed. Its constant pressure to win almost every game if not actually every game so the managers cannot really experiment much. 

Your not far wrong.

How many young\youth\u21\u23 Irish players are with EPL clubs v how many players are getting a chance to play for the 1st team?




Edited by horsebox - 01 Sep 2023 at 10:00am
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The issue here is that Vata likely is good enough, if not now, then in the not too distant future (Doak was similar) as evidenced by the fact Ange was giving him game time. It reflects poorly on Celtic imo that they cant even get their very best underage talents to commit and it surely points to issues with how they develop such talents. They are dominant in their league, they should be able to have a spot or two open to their best young players for games at home vs the bottom 6 for example. To me this is a problem with the culture and/or vision within the club.
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Celtic bringing through players who are good enough to start games regularly has been a problem for about a decade or so.

Forrest, McGregor and Tierney are the three standouts from the past 10 odd tears.

Ralston has barely played bar one season.
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Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs LOL The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence.


Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. 
 So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??


I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. 



They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it.

None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.

They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,

Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.


 The concept of actually developing players to help them become good enough is , of course, completely lost on the club. Which brings us back to Vata, Doak and anyone else with talent and ambition wanting out.

At every single club in the world - the club will try and develop their own players - the vast majority will probably never get a chance for a number of reasons , not good enough, better players ahead of them etc...

The bigger and more successful the club, the harder it gets. And a lot of those players will leave without ever getting a minute on the pitch, and again, most will go on to have reasonably successful careers with other clubs, probably at lesser teams or in lower divisions.


I remember reading an article a few months ago about Brighton and how they are working to develop Andrew Moran to be the best player he can be. Nobody else wanted him when he was playing in Ireland, he was talented but physically undeveloped and needed a lot of work overall. But they saw something in him, took him over to England and have been working hard with him since to maximise his potential, through personally tailored coaching, their Under 18s, Under 21s/23s, senior squad training, senior appearances in cup games, a Premier League debut and now an excellent loan to Blackburn in the Championship.

He may make it, he may not, but going to Brighton has given him the best possible chance I would say. Would he have had the same level of work and focus put in to him at Celtic? Would they have created the same pathway for him? Or would he have been left in the B team for a couple of years and then sent to some Scottish provincial lower league club before being cut adrift? All evidence points to the latter.
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Originally posted by Banana_RepublicFC Banana_RepublicFC wrote:

Celtic bringing through players who are good enough to start games regularly has been a problem for about a decade or so.

Forrest, McGregor and Tierney are the three standouts from the past 10 odd tears.

Ralston has barely played bar one season.

And Forrest is 32 now. McGregor is 30. Tierney was their once in a decade Evan Ferguson/Nathan Collins equivalent - a player who would have made it regardless of what club he went to. And they ruined him by repeatedly playing him when he wasn't fully fit. Some record they have alright.


Edited by You Tell Me - 01 Sep 2023 at 10:21am
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Word is they're offering him a new contract, and also trying to develop him as a striker, interesting of true

https://www.67hailhail.com/transfers/celtic-kick-out-two-late-english-transfer-offers-new-plan-and-position-for-academy-talent/


Edited by Howdo - 01 Sep 2023 at 11:06am
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Originally posted by Howdo Howdo wrote:

Word is they're offering him a new contract, and also trying to develop him as a striker, interesting of true

https://www.67hailhail.com/transfers/celtic-kick-out-two-late-english-transfer-offers-new-plan-and-position-for-academy-talent/

A waste of his talents. 

He could maybe play as a second striker in a 3-5-2 system like the one that Inter use.
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Needs to get well out of there...
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Originally posted by John Nice John Nice wrote:

The issue here is that Vata likely is good enough, if not now, then in the not too distant future (Doak was similar) as evidenced by the fact Ange was giving him game time. It reflects poorly on Celtic imo that they cant even get their very best underage talents to commit and it surely points to issues with how they develop such talents. They are dominant in their league, they should be able to have a spot or two open to their best young players for games at home vs the bottom 6 for example. To me this is a problem with the culture and/or vision within the club.


You’re not far wrong, but the suggestion by people that this only happens at Celtic, or that the Irish lads who were there were ‘wronged’ and are doing much better now, is simply not factual. 


Edited by Fitz - 01 Sep 2023 at 8:16pm
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It looks like Abada is out for 4-5 months with a thigh tear according to the SMSM

Good chance for Vata to get minutes over the winter
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Originally posted by tonyjaa tonyjaa wrote:

It looks like Abada is out for 4-5 months with a thigh tear according to the SMSM

Good chance for Vata to get minutes over the winter

And/or for Johnston who I see has been named in their CL squad (along with Scales) - Dont think Vata has to be named in that as he's U21 and club trained.
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