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John Nice 
Jack Charlton
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 Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 10:10am |
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The issue here is that Vata likely is good enough, if not now, then in the not too distant future (Doak was similar) as evidenced by the fact Ange was giving him game time. It reflects poorly on Celtic imo that they cant even get their very best underage talents to commit and it surely points to issues with how they develop such talents. They are dominant in their league, they should be able to have a spot or two open to their best young players for games at home vs the bottom 6 for example. To me this is a problem with the culture and/or vision within the club.
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horsebox
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 9:55am |
 doherty wrote:
Here is my theory on why Celtic or Rangers for that matter never really bring through youngsters that much. Both teams have to win every game almost to outdo each other. You have to win every game to try and win the league. A loss for one of them and its like the end of the world in Glasgow. You cannot really experiment in Cup games either as again any kind of loss and your doomed. Its constant pressure to win almost every game if not actually every game so the managers cannot really experiment much. |
Your not far wrong.
How many young\youth\u21\u23 Irish players are with EPL clubs v how many players are getting a chance to play for the 1st team?
Edited by horsebox - 01 Sep 2023 at 10:00am
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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The Huntacha
Roy Keane
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 9:54am |
doherty wrote:
Here is my theory on why Celtic or Rangers for that matter never really bring through youngsters that much. Both teams have to win every game almost to outdo each other. You have to win every game to try and win the league. A loss for one of them and its like the end of the world in Glasgow. You cannot really experiment in Cup games either as again any kind of loss and your doomed. Its constant pressure to win almost every game if not actually every game so the managers cannot really experiment much. |
Exactly. Unless you’re extremely talented, it’s more or less impossible to make the breakthrough at any club where they have to win the league each year.
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horsebox
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 9:48am |
You Tell Me wrote:
horsebox wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs  The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it. |
None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.
They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,
Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.
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The concept of actually developing players to help them become good enough is , of course, completely lost on the club. Which brings us back to Vata, Doak and anyone else with talent and ambition wanting out.
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At every single club in the world - the club will try and develop their own players - the vast majority will probably never get a chance for a number of reasons , not good enough, better players ahead of them etc...
The bigger and more successful the club, the harder it gets. And a lot of those players will leave without ever getting a minute on the pitch, and again, most will go on to have reasonably successful careers with other clubs, probably at lesser teams or in lower divisions.
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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You Tell Me
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 9:20am |
It's pretty much that combined with a lack of a suitable structure and depth of talent for developing young players in Scotland outside of first team football. But it's for Celtic to figure out how to work around those issues, and they have failed miserably at that.
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doherty
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 9:15am |
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Here is my theory on why Celtic or Rangers for that matter never really bring through youngsters that much. Both teams have to win every game almost to outdo each other. You have to win every game to try and win the league. A loss for one of them and its like the end of the world in Glasgow. You cannot really experiment in Cup games either as again any kind of loss and your doomed. Its constant pressure to win almost every game if not actually every game so the managers cannot really experiment much.
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You Tell Me
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 9:13am |
horsebox wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it. |
None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.
They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,
Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.
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The concept of actually developing players to help them become good enough is , of course, completely lost on the club. Which brings us back to Vata, Doak and anyone else with talent and ambition wanting out.
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horsebox
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 8:55am |
The O'Shea wrote:
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it. |
None of those players above are good enough to play for Celtic.
They all left for lesser clubs and and are all doing relatively well - which is great for them, but it's still not different to any other player that fails to make the grade at a bigger club,
Multiple managers would have looked at these players and felt there were better players ahead of them.
Edited by horsebox - 01 Sep 2023 at 8:57am
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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horsebox
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 8:50am |
The O'Shea wrote:
Fitz wrote:
You Tell Me wrote:
tonyjaa wrote:
Anthony Joseph
@AnthonyRJoseph
UPDATE: Celtic have rejected a £450,000 bid from an unnamed English Premier League club for attacker Rocco Vata.
It’s understood the offer included add-ons and a sell-on clause.
Celtic would be due £343,000 in compensation if he signs a pre-contract in January
_
Pity he doesn't sign a contract and stay on
This will be Forrests last season & I can see other wide attackers move on in Jan/next summer and he would get his chances but appears his dad is pushing for a big move elsewhere for alot more wages
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They'll just sign more sh*te from around the world and not play him. Like they always do. Vata senior is probably smart enough to see that. It's an easy decision, go elsewhere and have a shot at first team football at a good level or stay at Celtic and be the next Luca Connell, rotting away doing nothing until he's 22. |
I agree that he should’ve gotten more chances - and I’d like to see him get a few more - but tbf it’s not like he’s looked amazing any time he’s played. There’s this narrative that Celtic has treated Irish players very badly and that it’s a bad place for youth development (and, yes, maybe it could well be better) but a lot of the support for this narrative had come from people that haven’t seen much of these lads at all. |
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
You could say the same for any player that fails to make through at a 'big' club.
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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Fitz
Liam Brady
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:25am |
J89 wrote:
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
Luca left Celtic a year ago and is doing more than okay at Barnsley. |
Sorry, poorly worded there on my behalf - I meant he hadn’t been involved with the first team since 2020 (he played 38 times for Queens Park in 2 seasons).
Ya, and like I said, more power to him. I liked the look of him when he arrived at Celtic, and maybe he’ll go on to greater things. Would he have been good enough to play for Celtic in the last two seasons though?? No is the answer.
Edited by Fitz - 01 Sep 2023 at 1:28am
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J89
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:16am |
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
Luca left Celtic a year ago and is doing more than okay at Barnsley.
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Fitz
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:15am |
John Nice wrote:
Fitz wrote:
You Tell Me wrote:
It's not really that they should have played him more up to now, it's that previous examples of countless other young players, both Irish and from other countries, show that if he signs a new deal they won't play him in future either. |
I think he should’ve had more of a crack of the whip up to now; even Doak didn’t play much for the senior team, which is a shame (Celtic did want to keep him but he wanted to go - fair enough). I have no qualms in saying that there’s instances of youth players’ situations being handled badly at Celtic - that isn’t an issue that many Celtic fans will deny - but the narrative that every young player who’s left in recent years has improved is simply bollox. Karamoko Dembele was a total youth prodigy (who also should’ve featured more) but, so far, he’s gone on to do f**k all. |
Doak likely would have stayed, if Celtic were able to convince him that it was the best place for him to develop, just like Vata likely would have. The fact that they dont seem to be able to convince these young lads/their agents/advisors that this is the case is a big problem for Celtic, they need to do better, that much seems clear. |
That’s easily said now, but with agents and parents involved most players are going to go for the money (by all accounts he got a great deal and wanted to go). Does that mean that Celtic couldn’t and shouldn’t do better in numerous areas? It certainly does not.
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Fitz
Liam Brady
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:12am |
The O'Shea wrote:
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it. |
My god, you sure do know a lot about the goings-on at Celtic!  I agree that their development may well have been better elsewhere, but you’re totally moving the goalposts in regards to where they are now and how they’re doing. Afolabi scored 8 times in 51 games down the leagues in Scotland over the course of three years. I hope to f**k that they all go on to great things, genuinely, but either you’ve got some anti-Celtic agenda going on or you’re simply over-estimating the level that these lads are at/are capable of.
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John Nice
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:08am |
Fitz wrote:
You Tell Me wrote:
It's not really that they should have played him more up to now, it's that previous examples of countless other young players, both Irish and from other countries, show that if he signs a new deal they won't play him in future either. |
I think he should’ve had more of a crack of the whip up to now; even Doak didn’t play much for the senior team, which is a shame (Celtic did want to keep him but he wanted to go - fair enough). I have no qualms in saying that there’s instances of youth players’ situations being handled badly at Celtic - that isn’t an issue that many Celtic fans will deny - but the narrative that every young player who’s left in recent years has improved is simply bollox. Karamoko Dembele was a total youth prodigy (who also should’ve featured more) but, so far, he’s gone on to do f**k all. |
Doak likely would have stayed, if Celtic were able to convince him that it was the best place for him to develop, just like Vata likely would have. The fact that they dont seem to be able to convince these young lads/their agents/advisors that this is the case is a big problem for Celtic, they need to do better, that much seems clear.
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John Nice
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:05am |
On the Vata point, he looked by some distance the best of our attacking U19 players in the Elite Group back in March. Postecoglu was also giving him chances towards the back end of last season. There have been plenty of Irish lads at Celtic who maybe werent up to a whole lot, but imo they are making a mistake with this lad.
Anyway I think it's pretty clear that the Scottish B League isnt a good vehicle for developing youngsters. They need to find a better way to progress and manage young lads through the loan system.
Edited by John Nice - 01 Sep 2023 at 1:06am
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Fitz
Liam Brady
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 1:04am |
You Tell Me wrote:
It's not really that they should have played him more up to now, it's that previous examples of countless other young players, both Irish and from other countries, show that if he signs a new deal they won't play him in future either. |
I think he should’ve had more of a crack of the whip up to now; even Doak didn’t play much for the senior team, which is a shame (Celtic did want to keep him but he wanted to go - fair enough). I have no qualms in saying that there’s instances of youth players’ situations being handled badly at Celtic - that isn’t an issue that many Celtic fans will deny - but the narrative that every young player who’s left in recent years has improved is simply bollox. Karamoko Dembele was a total youth prodigy (who also should’ve featured more) but, so far, he’s gone on to do f**k all.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 12:57am |
Fitz wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal. |
They've all improved on their lot since leaving (having noticeably disimproved when there). Afolabi is the form player in the LOI, O'Connor is an established player for Tranmere, Connell was outstanding for Barnsley last year, OkoFlex has played Championship football and is now with one of the top sides in Switzerland, etc. Their situations are all significantly better than they were at Celtic, where they were basically left to rot with no clear plan for their development for a few years. Whether any of them would ultimately have been good enough for Celtic is not the point, the point is that Celtic actively hindered their development rather than maximising it.
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We're decent enough..
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Fitz
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Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 12:52am |
The O'Shea wrote:
Hasn't looked amazing any time he's played? He's played 40 mins for Celtic 1st team ffs The narrative is not that Celtic are bad exclusively for young Irish players, it's that they're sh*te for any young player. Literally every Irish lad that has left there has improved since doing so, it's not all a coincidence. |
Have they, ya? Lee O Connor playing in League 2? Afolabi, Coffey and Kenny (on loan, after scoring 0/12 for Queen’s Park last year) playing in the League of Ireland? Luca Connell left Celtic four years ago and is now doing okay at Barnsley - and more power to him - but it’s League 1. Okoflex never played for the senior team at West Ham and made 13 appearances on loan at Swansea; he’s gone to Zurich now, let’s see if things improve for him. So, who are these Irish lads you speak of that have all improved so much since leaving??
I’ve plenty of critical things to say about Celtic (including matters related to coaching and the youth system), as do the majority of Celtic fans, but you’re talking through your arse here pal.
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