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OohAah... 
Ray Houghton
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 Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 6:07pm |
 Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated. |
Go way outta that. He sabotaged nothing. I have zero time for him.But you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth (I.e. “aha! So he sabotaged something!”) which presumably means you’re trying to claim that the wider argument you’re trying to make that Bojo sabotaged a peace deal, is valid. There was no peace deal, no text, no actual framework. So there could be no sabotage. And believe me, Bojo is a drop in the bucket in comparison to how untrustworthy the likes of Putin are.
And has Putin and Russia not miscalculated? |
I am not a fan of Russia. But to me they set out to get eastern Ukraine and they got it.
As for Bojo there was alot of movement around the time and the outcome was Ukriane pulling out of the deal. Ill draw my own conclusions. A quick Google search gives enough info on the subject and I dont trust western msm any more on the subject. |
And they had no right or entitlement legal or otherwise to “get it”. Imagine in a United Ireland scenario, thirty years after the fact, the UK decided to invade a small portion of Ireland, under false pretences, and occupied it. That would also be illegal, and the unilateral withdrawal of the map, in modern society.
Again, there was no deal. There were talks, but no deal. Wherever you’re getting your sources from they are making baseless claims about a deal or an agreement. It depends on your google searches, I suppose.
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That was not your question. Your question was did russia Miscalculate. I was not justifying the invasion
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Fair enough. Did he miscalculate? Obviously yes, and the moment the went toward Kiev and the Bucha massacre happened there was always going to be blowback with gave rise to aid and assistance. In fact the moment they crossed into eastern Ukraine the risk of resistance was there, and resistance from the West.
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You can define a miscalculation that way if you want. If He publicly set out to " Denazify" Eastern Ukraine and has now msot of it underRussian control that to me isnt a miscalculation. The Wests response which has now be renarratived as from Defeating the Russians to Now Stopping them advancing to me would seem like a miscalculation.
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Het-field
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 5:49pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated. |
Go way outta that. He sabotaged nothing. I have zero time for him.But you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth (I.e. “aha! So he sabotaged something!”) which presumably means you’re trying to claim that the wider argument you’re trying to make that Bojo sabotaged a peace deal, is valid. There was no peace deal, no text, no actual framework. So there could be no sabotage. And believe me, Bojo is a drop in the bucket in comparison to how untrustworthy the likes of Putin are.
And has Putin and Russia not miscalculated? |
I am not a fan of Russia. But to me they set out to get eastern Ukraine and they got it.
As for Bojo there was alot of movement around the time and the outcome was Ukriane pulling out of the deal. Ill draw my own conclusions. A quick Google search gives enough info on the subject and I dont trust western msm any more on the subject. |
And they had no right or entitlement legal or otherwise to “get it”. Imagine in a United Ireland scenario, thirty years after the fact, the UK decided to invade a small portion of Ireland, under false pretences, and occupied it. That would also be illegal, and the unilateral withdrawal of the map, in modern society.
Again, there was no deal. There were talks, but no deal. Wherever you’re getting your sources from they are making baseless claims about a deal or an agreement. It depends on your google searches, I suppose.
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That was not your question. Your question was did russia Miscalculate. I was not justifying the invasion
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Fair enough. Did he miscalculate? Obviously yes, and the moment the went toward Kiev and the Bucha massacre happened there was always going to be blowback with gave rise to aid and assistance. In fact the moment they crossed into eastern Ukraine the risk of resistance was there, and resistance from the West.
Edited by Het-field - 24 Apr 2024 at 5:51pm
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 5:41pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Im wrong the US can be trusted. They know nothing of war crimes.
This is history this will be forgotten, but trust us this time about Ukraine
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Maybe most have but I most certainly don't give the US and a few other western allies a free pass for their crimes.
Regarding the aid, it did dry up because the MAGA cult delayed it but it's about to start flowing again. There's no shortage of aid to give just political hurdles.
You say you've been against this invasion from day 1 but you don't seem in favour of Ukraine getting the military help it needs to defeat it's aggressor. |
I am not a fan of War. the aid will only prolong it. I am not a fan of the invader but Im not a fan of any sort of meddling that gave " escuses" too.
Okay so the Aid did dry up. And it was held up by the democratic process which ended up being passed anyway with aid to fund a genocide
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The aid will prologue it because it will stop the genocide and conquest of Ukraine by Russia. By your logic we should have let Nazi Germany dominate the world because war is bad!
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Russia have not been found guilty of Genoicde Yet or Warned to stop genocide by the ICC yet in 2 years. In a few months US backed Isarael have. If you dont mind I will trust their definition not yours.
The hitler and Nazi cards are always played when comparing an enemy of the Western World. I dont believe in them, so wont entertain them.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 5:37pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated. |
Go way outta that. He sabotaged nothing. I have zero time for him.But you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth (I.e. “aha! So he sabotaged something!”) which presumably means you’re trying to claim that the wider argument you’re trying to make that Bojo sabotaged a peace deal, is valid. There was no peace deal, no text, no actual framework. So there could be no sabotage. And believe me, Bojo is a drop in the bucket in comparison to how untrustworthy the likes of Putin are.
And has Putin and Russia not miscalculated? |
I am not a fan of Russia. But to me they set out to get eastern Ukraine and they got it.
As for Bojo there was alot of movement around the time and the outcome was Ukriane pulling out of the deal. Ill draw my own conclusions. A quick Google search gives enough info on the subject and I dont trust western msm any more on the subject. |
And they had no right or entitlement legal or otherwise to “get it”. Imagine in a United Ireland scenario, thirty years after the fact, the UK decided to invade a small portion of Ireland, under false pretences, and occupied it. That would also be illegal, and the unilateral withdrawal of the map, in modern society.
Again, there was no deal. There were talks, but no deal. Wherever you’re getting your sources from they are making baseless claims about a deal or an agreement. It depends on your google searches, I suppose.
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That was not your question. Your question was did russia Miscalculate. I was not justifying the invasion
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 5:34pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Im wrong the US can be trusted. They know nothing of war crimes.
This is history this will be forgotten, but trust us this time about Ukraine
|
Maybe most have but I most certainly don't give the US and a few other western allies a free pass for their crimes.
Regarding the aid, it did dry up because the MAGA cult delayed it but it's about to start flowing again. There's no shortage of aid to give just political hurdles.
You say you've been against this invasion from day 1 but you don't seem in favour of Ukraine getting the military help it needs to defeat it's aggressor. |
I am not a fan of War. the aid will only prolong it. I am not a fan of the invader but Im not a fan of any sort of meddling that gave " escuses" too.
Okay so the Aid did dry up. And it was held up by the democratic process which ended up being passed anyway with aid to fund a genocide
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The aid will prologue it because it will stop the genocide and conquest of Ukraine by Russia. By your logic we should have let Nazi Germany dominate the world because war is bad!
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:36pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated. |
Go way outta that. He sabotaged nothing. I have zero time for him.But you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth (I.e. “aha! So he sabotaged something!”) which presumably means you’re trying to claim that the wider argument you’re trying to make that Bojo sabotaged a peace deal, is valid. There was no peace deal, no text, no actual framework. So there could be no sabotage. And believe me, Bojo is a drop in the bucket in comparison to how untrustworthy the likes of Putin are.
And has Putin and Russia not miscalculated? |
I am not a fan of Russia. But to me they set out to get eastern Ukraine and they got it.
As for Bojo there was alot of movement around the time and the outcome was Ukriane pulling out of the deal. Ill draw my own conclusions. A quick Google search gives enough info on the subject and I dont trust western msm any more on the subject. |
And they had no right or entitlement legal or otherwise to “get it”. Imagine in a United Ireland scenario, thirty years after the fact, the UK decided to invade a small portion of Ireland, under false pretences, and occupied it. That would also be illegal, and the unilateral withdrawal of the map, in modern society.
Again, there was no deal. There were talks, but no deal. Wherever you’re getting your sources from they are making baseless claims about a deal or an agreement. It depends on your google searches, I suppose.
Edited by Het-field - 24 Apr 2024 at 4:42pm
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:30pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated. |
Go way outta that. He sabotaged nothing. I have zero time for him.But you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth (I.e. “aha! So he sabotaged something!”) which presumably means you’re trying to claim that the wider argument you’re trying to make that Bojo sabotaged a peace deal, is valid. There was no peace deal, no text, no actual framework. So there could be no sabotage. And believe me, Bojo is a drop in the bucket in comparison to how untrustworthy the likes of Putin are.
And has Putin and Russia not miscalculated? |
I am not a fan of Russia. But to me they set out to get eastern Ukraine and they got it.
As for Bojo there was alot of movement around the time and the outcome was Ukriane pulling out of the deal. Ill draw my own conclusions. A quick Google search gives enough info on the subject and I dont trust western msm any more on the subject. and there was a text
Edited by OohAah... - 24 Apr 2024 at 4:33pm
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:28pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Im wrong the US can be trusted. They know nothing of war crimes.
This is history this will be forgotten, but trust us this time about Ukraine
|
Maybe most have but I most certainly don't give the US and a few other western allies a free pass for their crimes.
Regarding the aid, it did dry up because the MAGA cult delayed it but it's about to start flowing again. There's no shortage of aid to give just political hurdles.
You say you've been against this invasion from day 1 but you don't seem in favour of Ukraine getting the military help it needs to defeat it's aggressor. |
I am not a fan of War. the aid will only prolong it. I am not a fan of the invader but Im not a fan of any sort of meddling that gave " escuses" too.
Okay so the Aid did dry up. And it was held up by the democratic process which ended up being passed anyway with aid to fund a genocide
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:18pm |
OohAah... wrote:
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated. |
Go way outta that. He sabotaged nothing. I have zero time for him.But you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth (I.e. “aha! So he sabotaged something!”) which presumably means you’re trying to claim that the wider argument you’re trying to make that Bojo sabotaged a peace deal, is valid. There was no peace deal, no text, no actual framework. So there could be no sabotage. And believe me, Bojo is a drop in the bucket in comparison to how untrustworthy the likes of Putin are.
And has Putin and Russia not miscalculated?
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:12pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Im wrong the US can be trusted. They know nothing of war crimes.
This is history this will be forgotten, but trust us this time about Ukraine
|
Maybe most have but I most certainly don't give the US and a few other western allies a free pass for their crimes.
Regarding the aid, it did dry up because the MAGA cult delayed it but it's about to start flowing again. There's no shortage of aid to give just political hurdles.
You say you've been against this invasion from day 1 but you don't seem in favour of Ukraine getting the military help it needs to defeat it's aggressor.
|
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:06pm |
So at the very most Bojo saboaged something? theres varying reports on it. We are free to believe whatever side We chose. But I would not believe Bojo on any subject and found it scary He could even be involved in any discussions on such an importnat matter considering his Political roots
A diplomatic route was always possible before this aswell but the longer its gone o I would say its made it harder for a Russian pull back from its position. I do think the West Brigade thught they would defeat him and they miscalcualated.
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Het-field
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:59pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered? |
And is a stalemate better that giving into Putin’s original demands simply because he used military muscle, while his apparatchiks metaphorically hovered their finger over the nuclear button? Russia started this process, why would they be trusted in the diplomatic sphere? |
Biden mentioned Nuclear too as you know well. And you know well there was a peace agreement which Jonson scuppered although you choose to ignore this could have happend. A Stalemate I hope can lead to a ceasefire I see it as a possible offramp to this tragedy.
I have asked counteless of times how diplomatic route could possible happen. You didnt engage. So Ive no interest in roleplaying how a stalemate is a better scenario through US profit making aid |
There was no agreement, and at very least BoJo sabotaged nothing. Emily Ashford has an interesting article on this in the Guardian this week. There was zero agreement over some fundamental issues.
A diplomatic route is possible, but that will mandate Russia to resile from its position.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:41pm |
Im wrong the US can be trusted. They know nothing of war crimes.
This is history this will be forgotten, but trust us this time about Ukraine
Edited by OohAah... - 24 Apr 2024 at 3:41pm
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:34pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered? |
And is a stalemate better that giving into Putin’s original demands simply because he used military muscle, while his apparatchiks metaphorically hovered their finger over the nuclear button? Russia started this process, why would they be trusted in the diplomatic sphere? |
Biden mentioned Nuclear too as you know well. And you know well there was a peace agreement which Jonson scuppered although you choose to ignore this could have happend. A Stalemate I hope can lead to a ceasefire I see it as a possible offramp to this tragedy.
I have asked counteless of times how diplomatic route could possible happen. You didnt engage. So Ive no interest in roleplaying how a stalemate is a better scenario through US profit making aid
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OohAah...
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:29pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
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A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference. |
I am appalled that Ukraine couldn't get aid without shoe horning Israel in. MAGA would have happily sent Ukraine nothing and Israel everything. I'd rather Ukraine get everything. To deny Ukraine this aid package or future support you're basically accepting Putin will conquer everything East of the Dnipro eventually. With aid he'll be wasting his time.
Defeat and stopping Putin are the same thing but I'm firmly of the belief it will take at least 5 year's of this war. There's no short term solution especially when Hitler (Putin) has another 2 to 3 years before he's completely exhausted his soviet stockpiles.
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Youve gone down the hole of trying to compare US invading neighboring countries as a comparison and that they wouldnt. And Ive shown a history of it. Youve said Russia is an expert in Genocide and Ive shown that the US currently are supporting a Genocide and its tied in with the Ukranian package you champion. So can We agree its a hole thats a dead end of an argument.
yes Russia are the aggressor. Yes they were wrong to invade. This military aid only prolongs the absolute disaster. Not resolve it and all in the absence of Diplomacy. and meanwhile proftieering by the key characters once again
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That is all, we agree. Russia is the aggressor and they are wrong to invade. I really don't care about how good or bad the US is, in a conversation about Russia invading Ukraine but I'm delighted to see you write this out.
I still fully disagree that aid has run out and I fully disagree that it's wrong to help Ukraine. Putin showed full well what he did when the aid dried up. He intensified attacks and tried to capitalise on this show of weakness.
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But Ive said that since day 1 of this argument. Eire. All I have simply said is the US were meddling in the background which youve agreed with.
Sorry did the Aid dry up or not. Youve said both?
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 1:12pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
|
A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference. |
I am appalled that Ukraine couldn't get aid without shoe horning Israel in. MAGA would have happily sent Ukraine nothing and Israel everything. I'd rather Ukraine get everything. To deny Ukraine this aid package or future support you're basically accepting Putin will conquer everything East of the Dnipro eventually. With aid he'll be wasting his time.
Defeat and stopping Putin are the same thing but I'm firmly of the belief it will take at least 5 year's of this war. There's no short term solution especially when Hitler (Putin) has another 2 to 3 years before he's completely exhausted his soviet stockpiles.
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Youve gone down the hole of trying to compare US invading neighboring countries as a comparison and that they wouldnt. And Ive shown a history of it. Youve said Russia is an expert in Genocide and Ive shown that the US currently are supporting a Genocide and its tied in with the Ukranian package you champion. So can We agree its a hole thats a dead end of an argument.
yes Russia are the aggressor. Yes they were wrong to invade. This military aid only prolongs the absolute disaster. Not resolve it and all in the absence of Diplomacy. and meanwhile proftieering by the key characters once again
|
That is all, we agree. Russia is the aggressor and they are wrong to invade. I really don't care about how good or bad the US is, in a conversation about Russia invading Ukraine but I'm delighted to see you write this out.
I still fully disagree that aid has run out and I fully disagree that it's wrong to help Ukraine. Putin showed full well what he did when the aid dried up. He intensified attacks and tried to capitalise on this show of weakness.
Edited by eireland - 24 Apr 2024 at 1:13pm
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Het-field
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 12:39pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered? |
And is a stalemate better that giving into Putin’s original demands simply because he used military muscle, while his apparatchiks metaphorically hovered their finger over the nuclear button? Russia started this process, why would they be trusted in the diplomatic sphere?
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OohAah...
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 12:35pm |
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered?
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