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OohAah... 
Ray Houghton
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 Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 5:32pm |
 Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
Political organisations like civic groups and transparency agencies. That’s different to political parties. |
 ofcourse, its the US, no alterior motive |
How is funding for transparency a display of an ulterior motive? |
its not a display. but do you think any of the money would go to a russian leaning politcal organisation? With the US and its History and its Form? |
Does it have to? Aren’t Russia involved in other states? Remember Sailsbury? |
Yes both can be up to operations on foreign soil |
And why is that relevant in the context of the war in Ukraine? It’s implication at best, and then drawing a conclusion that makes no sense. |
Let me go back. As I said US have had political ( and other) interference in Ukraine pre Invasion. Ive gone back 20 years on the subject. Their form and their history would suggest to me they have had alterior motives in Ukraine( apart from the Democratic Flag waving, which their country doesnt even stand up to the test on) and have only benefiited through every stage financially even up to this very day with the latest package. Call this russian propoganda. but the bread crumbs are there and I dont think they can be dismissed as easily as you do.
You disgree. fine. But to me again if their plate was clean over there We wouldnt need to be having this conversation. but again We will be to differ. |
We’re having this conversation because I have indulged the conversation a bit, even though I profoundly disagree. You might notice I’m far less willing to engage with the Donkey or that other clown TRV. |
And I dont mind the debate either. And Im not here to Be Right and you Be Wrong. I just see mud everywhere in the subject and far from black and white.
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 5:33pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Net effect is the same lads. and you cant argue that. Pick away at the use of the word democracy all you want. 2 proftable military machines where the electorate has no say |
How is it the same? Has American invaded Mexico or Canada yet? That would be an equal bet result? Is president Bush ruling with an iron fist after 20 years in power and no end in sight? |
Do you really want to go down the route of talking about Central and south American countries who' had political differemce of opinion with the US |
You've gone further south though. Like I said get back to me when the US Invades Canada or Mexico like Putin I'm Ukraine. |
But why would they? They are politically aligned. A bit like Belarus and Russia. So look at countries nearby thay weren't politically alligned. Do I really have to mention the Cuban missile crisis?
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If Russia was in America's shoes they would have invaded Cuba and russified it. America were and still are ****s for Cuba however. Seems like your best argument to defend Russia is but America do it too. Two wrongs don't make a right. Russia is wrong, Ukraine is right. |
And not just Cuba( which if you remember almost brought the world to a Nuclear War)
My argument is not defending Russia. My argument is saying America Were meddling in Ukraine politics pre invasion. They have a form for it. Did it justify the invasion No. But to absolve America( with their track record) of all responsiblity is wrong. |
It's not an argument that justifies Russia's invasion just like Russian meddling in Cuba doesn't justify the 60 year embargo.
I'm not saying America or Russia is better I'm simply looking at this from a Ukraine Vs Russia Point of view. Likewise with Cuba I look at it from a US Vs Cuba.
Russia and America meddle in almost any country of significance where they can. This will never justify the third party country being invaded. |
And Im not trying to justify it either. I just dont think We can absolve US interference pre invasion. And the link shows the countries the meddling went on in. Including full on Invasions... they too have form
We can still beg to differ on what We believe though. Thats fine |
It's irrelevant when it comes down to saying Russia are 100% wrong for this invasion. Russia and US both meddled in Ukraine. Like I said any country invading Ukraine is completely I the wrong.
Coming up with lame excuses is excusing colonialism and genocide something Russia specialises in.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 5:36pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Net effect is the same lads. and you cant argue that. Pick away at the use of the word democracy all you want. 2 proftable military machines where the electorate has no say |
How is it the same? Has American invaded Mexico or Canada yet? That would be an equal bet result? Is president Bush ruling with an iron fist after 20 years in power and no end in sight? |
Do you really want to go down the route of talking about Central and south American countries who' had political differemce of opinion with the US |
You've gone further south though. Like I said get back to me when the US Invades Canada or Mexico like Putin I'm Ukraine. |
But why would they? They are politically aligned. A bit like Belarus and Russia. So look at countries nearby thay weren't politically alligned. Do I really have to mention the Cuban missile crisis?
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If Russia was in America's shoes they would have invaded Cuba and russified it. America were and still are ****s for Cuba however. Seems like your best argument to defend Russia is but America do it too. Two wrongs don't make a right. Russia is wrong, Ukraine is right. |
And not just Cuba( which if you remember almost brought the world to a Nuclear War)
My argument is not defending Russia. My argument is saying America Were meddling in Ukraine politics pre invasion. They have a form for it. Did it justify the invasion No. But to absolve America( with their track record) of all responsiblity is wrong. |
It's not an argument that justifies Russia's invasion just like Russian meddling in Cuba doesn't justify the 60 year embargo.
I'm not saying America or Russia is better I'm simply looking at this from a Ukraine Vs Russia Point of view. Likewise with Cuba I look at it from a US Vs Cuba.
Russia and America meddle in almost any country of significance where they can. This will never justify the third party country being invaded. |
And Im not trying to justify it either. I just dont think We can absolve US interference pre invasion. And the link shows the countries the meddling went on in. Including full on Invasions... they too have form
We can still beg to differ on what We believe though. Thats fine |
It's irrelevant when it comes down to saying Russia are 100% wrong for this invasion. Russia and US both meddled in Ukraine. Like I said any country invading Ukraine is completely I the wrong.
Coming up with lame excuses is excusing colonialism and genocide something Russia specialises in. |
I always said they were wrong to invade. But it didnt happen in a vacuum of non outside interference from third parties.
And your way off with the last sentence. and if you want to go down that route the same can be thrown at the US.
this particular round of argument on the subject was kicked off by your cheerleading Military aid for Ukraine. a Deal which saw military aid being sent to Israel too, which is currently indicted by the ICC for genocide. but work away of going down that route
Edited by OohAah... - 23 Apr 2024 at 5:41pm
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eireland
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 5:58pm |
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
Edited by eireland - 24 Apr 2024 at 1:45am
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Mush Cassidys Donkey
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 8:04am |
I'd say Tory Boy was one of Bertie's legal representatives at the Mahon Tribunal with the amount of bullsh*t and deflection sprouted over the last few pages. Idiotic stuff 
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 8:27am |
Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
with the amount of bullsh*t and deflection sprouted over the last few pages. Idiotic stuff |
My stuff is spot on. You’ve resorted to umpiring the thread, which means you’ve nothing left.
Edited by Het-field - 24 Apr 2024 at 8:27am
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Mush Cassidys Donkey
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 8:44am |
Het-field wrote:
Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
with the amount of bullsh*t and deflection sprouted over the last few pages. Idiotic stuff |
My stuff is spot on. You’ve resorted to umpiring the thread, which means you’ve nothing left.
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No I'm just enjoying OohAah schooling you. I know you're a right wing idiot and I'm just sitting back letting you dig a deeper hole.
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 8:48am |
Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
Het-field wrote:
Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
with the amount of bullsh*t and deflection sprouted over the last few pages. Idiotic stuff |
My stuff is spot on. You’ve resorted to umpiring the thread, which means you’ve nothing left.
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No I'm just enjoying OohAah schooling you. I know you're a right wing idiot and I'm just sitting back letting you dig a deeper hole. |
Like he said you've absolutely nothing to contribute.
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 8:53am |
Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
Het-field wrote:
Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
with the amount of bullsh*t and deflection sprouted over the last few pages. Idiotic stuff |
My stuff is spot on. You’ve resorted to umpiring the thread, which means you’ve nothing left.
|
No I'm just enjoying OohAah schooling you. I know you're a right wing idiot and I'm just sitting back letting you dig a deeper hole. |
Big admission on your part. But we’ve read your propaganda posts and now you’re sitting on the sidelines because you have nothing to offer.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 9:46am |
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
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A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference.
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 9:55am |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
|
A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference. |
I am appalled that Ukraine couldn't get aid without shoe horning Israel in. MAGA would have happily sent Ukraine nothing and Israel everything. I'd rather Ukraine get everything. To deny Ukraine this aid package or future support you're basically accepting Putin will conquer everything East of the Dnipro eventually. With aid he'll be wasting his time.
Defeat and stopping Putin are the same thing but I'm firmly of the belief it will take at least 5 year's of this war. There's no short term solution especially when Hitler (Putin) has another 2 to 3 years before he's completely exhausted his soviet stockpiles.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 10:31am |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
|
A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference. |
I am appalled that Ukraine couldn't get aid without shoe horning Israel in. MAGA would have happily sent Ukraine nothing and Israel everything. I'd rather Ukraine get everything. To deny Ukraine this aid package or future support you're basically accepting Putin will conquer everything East of the Dnipro eventually. With aid he'll be wasting his time.
Defeat and stopping Putin are the same thing but I'm firmly of the belief it will take at least 5 year's of this war. There's no short term solution especially when Hitler (Putin) has another 2 to 3 years before he's completely exhausted his soviet stockpiles.
|
Youve gone down the hole of trying to compare US invading neighboring countries as a comparison and that they wouldnt. And Ive shown a history of it. Youve said Russia is an expert in Genocide and Ive shown that the US currently are supporting a Genocide and its tied in with the Ukranian package you champion. So can We agree its a hole thats a dead end of an argument.
yes Russia are the aggressor. Yes they were wrong to invade. This military aid only prolongs the absolute disaster. Not resolve it and all in the absence of Diplomacy. and meanwhile proftieering by the key characters once again
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 12:15pm |
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And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine?
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 12:35pm |
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered?
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Het-field
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 12:39pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered? |
And is a stalemate better that giving into Putin’s original demands simply because he used military muscle, while his apparatchiks metaphorically hovered their finger over the nuclear button? Russia started this process, why would they be trusted in the diplomatic sphere?
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 1:12pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
|
A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference. |
I am appalled that Ukraine couldn't get aid without shoe horning Israel in. MAGA would have happily sent Ukraine nothing and Israel everything. I'd rather Ukraine get everything. To deny Ukraine this aid package or future support you're basically accepting Putin will conquer everything East of the Dnipro eventually. With aid he'll be wasting his time.
Defeat and stopping Putin are the same thing but I'm firmly of the belief it will take at least 5 year's of this war. There's no short term solution especially when Hitler (Putin) has another 2 to 3 years before he's completely exhausted his soviet stockpiles.
|
Youve gone down the hole of trying to compare US invading neighboring countries as a comparison and that they wouldnt. And Ive shown a history of it. Youve said Russia is an expert in Genocide and Ive shown that the US currently are supporting a Genocide and its tied in with the Ukranian package you champion. So can We agree its a hole thats a dead end of an argument.
yes Russia are the aggressor. Yes they were wrong to invade. This military aid only prolongs the absolute disaster. Not resolve it and all in the absence of Diplomacy. and meanwhile proftieering by the key characters once again
|
That is all, we agree. Russia is the aggressor and they are wrong to invade. I really don't care about how good or bad the US is, in a conversation about Russia invading Ukraine but I'm delighted to see you write this out.
I still fully disagree that aid has run out and I fully disagree that it's wrong to help Ukraine. Putin showed full well what he did when the aid dried up. He intensified attacks and tried to capitalise on this show of weakness.
Edited by eireland - 24 Apr 2024 at 1:13pm
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:29pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
I do want to go that route and I proudly apply that same logic to the US. You saying but that applies to the US too doesn't prove me wrong because I don't like US foreign policy.
I also never once celebrated Israel getting aid and would rather Ukraine get it instead. The more the merrier.
China meddling in Argentina. The US should invade.
|
A couple of points here. 1) the israeli genoicde( militarily being back by america) is part of the same deal as the Ukrainian Military package. thats The link. If your not appalled by this. Your a hypocrit. 2) Have you not noticed the change in narrative between defeating Putin to Stopping Putin. We will be back here in 6 months talking baout more aid. You have championed Putins demise for months now and theres no sign of it coming. 3) China expressing an interest in building a port is not political interference. |
I am appalled that Ukraine couldn't get aid without shoe horning Israel in. MAGA would have happily sent Ukraine nothing and Israel everything. I'd rather Ukraine get everything. To deny Ukraine this aid package or future support you're basically accepting Putin will conquer everything East of the Dnipro eventually. With aid he'll be wasting his time.
Defeat and stopping Putin are the same thing but I'm firmly of the belief it will take at least 5 year's of this war. There's no short term solution especially when Hitler (Putin) has another 2 to 3 years before he's completely exhausted his soviet stockpiles.
|
Youve gone down the hole of trying to compare US invading neighboring countries as a comparison and that they wouldnt. And Ive shown a history of it. Youve said Russia is an expert in Genocide and Ive shown that the US currently are supporting a Genocide and its tied in with the Ukranian package you champion. So can We agree its a hole thats a dead end of an argument.
yes Russia are the aggressor. Yes they were wrong to invade. This military aid only prolongs the absolute disaster. Not resolve it and all in the absence of Diplomacy. and meanwhile proftieering by the key characters once again
|
That is all, we agree. Russia is the aggressor and they are wrong to invade. I really don't care about how good or bad the US is, in a conversation about Russia invading Ukraine but I'm delighted to see you write this out.
I still fully disagree that aid has run out and I fully disagree that it's wrong to help Ukraine. Putin showed full well what he did when the aid dried up. He intensified attacks and tried to capitalise on this show of weakness.
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But Ive said that since day 1 of this argument. Eire. All I have simply said is the US were meddling in the background which youve agreed with.
Sorry did the Aid dry up or not. Youve said both?
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:34pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
And what happens if they unilaterally remove the aid from Ukraine? |
I dont have an answer to that.
But its not removing aid, the Aid has run out. Elections in May in Ukraine, it is a unsettling time. Aid helps Zelesnkys cause to keep going this route. but I dont know what the Ukranian people are thinking and it could be quite a divisive election and unsettling in terms of stability.
I would still prefer to see some sort of Alternative route out of this disaster. I dont know theshape of it but if the Aid is merely to stop Putin procedeing any further then its a stalemate. Could a ceasefire be brokered? |
And is a stalemate better that giving into Putin’s original demands simply because he used military muscle, while his apparatchiks metaphorically hovered their finger over the nuclear button? Russia started this process, why would they be trusted in the diplomatic sphere? |
Biden mentioned Nuclear too as you know well. And you know well there was a peace agreement which Jonson scuppered although you choose to ignore this could have happend. A Stalemate I hope can lead to a ceasefire I see it as a possible offramp to this tragedy.
I have asked counteless of times how diplomatic route could possible happen. You didnt engage. So Ive no interest in roleplaying how a stalemate is a better scenario through US profit making aid
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