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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Mr. Snrub Mr. Snrub wrote:

Given's career went on some downward spiral after Euro 2012. 

Was he ever first choice for club again in his career?? 

I've grown to dislike him since, he shouldn't have been playing in the first place

His career was on a downward spiral for some time before it really, 2012 was just the culmination. I think there were clear signs of disimprovement from 2010 and certainly 2011.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Still can't forgive Shay Given for Euro 2012.    


In fairness there was more than just players playing through the pain barrier. The nonsense for leaving Coleman at home etc made the tournament a real farce.


He had something like 5 quad injures, he was out of form and Coleman himself admitted himself that he shouldn't have been selected.

We also had O'Shea and Dunne and maybe others injured or at least carrying knocks, hence the exclusion of Foley and the selection of McShane.
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Paul McGraths header that hit the post v Holland 1988 so close...

Although FAI were probably happy when Kieft scored, apparently didn't have enough money for semi final, not obviously in the plans. 
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Originally posted by Crap senior Crap senior wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Still can't forgive Shay Given for Euro 2012.    


In fairness there was more than just players playing through the pain barrier. The nonsense for leaving Coleman at home etc made the tournament a real farce.


He had something like 5 quad injures, he was out of form and Coleman himself admitted himself that he shouldn't have been selected.

We also had O'Shea and Dunne and maybe others injured or at least carrying knocks, hence the exclusion of Foley and the selection of McShane.

o Shea was never a full back though. 


I never said he was, although he played many positions including goalkeeper, the point is that a number of our defenders were carrying knocks and could have been ruled out at any stage.

Only seeing Tets reply now.

Go back and view the Coleman thread in or before the Euros, AFAIK no one batted an eyelid when Coleman wasn't selected for a whole host of different reasons.

Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Coleman didn't go to Euro 2012  because he didn't deserve to. He had barely played in the previous six months. He completed 90 minutes in only six games that season, and none after the new year. His last start was in March, and only appeared in the three more games before the end of the season.
Hibbert got injured early the next season, so Coleman played pretty much every game, and got back to his previous form. That 's when people started asking why he didn't go to Poland.
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Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Crap senior Crap senior wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Still can't forgive Shay Given for Euro 2012.    


In fairness there was more than just players playing through the pain barrier. The nonsense for leaving Coleman at home etc made the tournament a real farce.


He had something like 5 quad injures, he was out of form and Coleman himself admitted himself that he shouldn't have been selected.

We also had O'Shea and Dunne and maybe others injured or at least carrying knocks, hence the exclusion of Foley and the selection of McShane.

o Shea was never a full back though. 


I never said he was, although he played many positions including goalkeeper, the point is that a number of our defenders were carrying knocks and could have been ruled out at any stage.

Only seeing Tets reply now.

Go back and view the Coleman thread in or before the Euros, AFAIK no one batted an eyelid when Coleman wasn't selected for a whole host of different reasons.

Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Coleman didn't go to Euro 2012  because he didn't deserve to. He had barely played in the previous six months. He completed 90 minutes in only six games that season, and none after the new year. His last start was in March, and only appeared in the three more games before the end of the season.
Hibbert got injured early the next season, so Coleman played pretty much every game, and got back to his previous form. That 's when people started asking why he didn't go to Poland.






O'Shea most certainly was a full back (and a fine one), but not after the blood clot in his leg sustained in 2009 which completely robbed him of his pace. Coleman may not have had a great season, but he still should have went, it's not as if he was incredibly young player at the time, he was 23/24. At the very least Foley should have been brought.
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Originally posted by Crap senior Crap senior wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Still can't forgive Shay Given for Euro 2012.    

In fairness there was more than just players playing through the pain barrier. The nonsense for leaving Coleman at home etc made the tournament a real farce.


Dave O'LEARY was left out of the Euro 88 squad as was Liam BRADY.  I didn't have a big issue with Coleman as he was young and had a poor season at Everton.  Trap probably overtrained the players and should have dropped Dunne and Given and taken the decision out of their hands.

Given said he couldn't jump off his left leg FFS and was getting treatment off the German team doctor on the day of the Croatia match unknown to everybody.  He went way down in my estimation that day.
nothing to do with trapatonis dinosaur tactics of course.


No.  MON is the ultimate dinosaur.  How is Given's ability to dive for a header anything to do with tactics?Confused

That 2012 was a hiding to nothing.   We played Spain who won 3 tournaments in a row playing unbelievable tiki taka football.  They are probably the best international team of all time.  We played the finalists in the same group (who Spain also beat 4-0 yet nobody mentions it).  We also played Croatia who almost knocked Italy out.   3 world class sides.  If we had qualified for the 2010 world cup we would have done very respectfully as the team were reaching a peak around then and the draw would have been far easier.  2012 was a disaster because the team was getting too old, the teams we were up against and the injuries and preparation was overdone. Given was a major reason it was over after the 1st game.  He was at fault for 2 of the goals because his reactions were that of a 80 year old man.
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Originally posted by Ecumenical Matter Ecumenical Matter wrote:

Playing the dead fixture in Poland. What made it worse was that we didn’t even give some of the lads a game.  

For tournament games I was at, that Italy game is my choice too. Wasn't as disinterested in a game in a long time as that one, it near enough defied belief that more or less the same obviously tired,  weakened by injuries & knocks team was picked that had conceded 7 goals the previous week. We basically conceded that game just by the act of naming that team. I've always maintained that this game was where Trap lost the dressing room, or at least the sizeable proportion of it that didn't get an opportunity to play even though we were already out. 

One thing that sticks in my mind is a fairly large section of fans deliberately trying to re-create the misery/eh, unique atmosphere of the Spain game by attempting to get a similar version of the fields of Athenry going when we went 2-nil down (It's a song I've always detested anyway, though I suppose its sheer misery is somehow appropriate for some of the muck we play on the pitch) - f**kin spare us lads will ya. 

Other than that, I would go for Holland in 1994, Bonner hadn't been a top class keeper since around 1991, and what made it worse was that Alan Kelly was one of the form keepers in England at the time, it was an error that Kelly at that stage, would have been extremely unlikely to have made. Yes the Dutch were a better team, but back then we used to justifiably not give a hoot about any team's reputation, though that was more difficult when we shot ourselves in the foot with a few selections in that tournament, not just Bonner. Stan's struggles with the extreme heat spring to mind there too. 

There is a also a theme there that continues to this day of lads playing for us on the basis of what they did 3, 4 or 5 years previously and not current form (Matt Doherty would probably agree with me there) and is seen in the current senior team with the continued selection of Whelan, Hendrick, McClean and Brady, regardless of their own form or performances, never mind those of others. 

2016 was MON's highlight, Belgium aside, we performed admirably for a limited squad, but if we did scrape qualifying with this group for 2020, unless new players make it into the team, or some of the aforementioned regain long lost form, the thought does strike me that the experience could be more like 2012 than 2016, especially with the more or less guaranteed presence of Spain in the group, even if they themselves are not at their 2008-2012 level. 
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Loved Italia 90 but looking back we played dire hoofball and scored 2 goals and never won a  game.  We broke football  so badly that they had to change the rules on account of us amd scrap the backpass and award 3 points for a win.




Edited by Trap junior - 20 Jun 2019 at 12:56am
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full time v Sweden

thought we'd completely f**ked it and didn't expect us to get anything from Belgium or Italy
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Originally posted by deise316 deise316 wrote:

Originally posted by Ecumenical Matter Ecumenical Matter wrote:

Playing the dead fixture in Poland. What made it worse was that we didn’t even give some of the lads a game.  

For tournament games I was at, that Italy game is my choice too. Wasn't as disinterested in a game in a long time as that one, it near enough defied belief that more or less the same obviously tired,  weakened by injuries & knocks team was picked that had conceded 7 goals the previous week. We basically conceded that game just by the act of naming that team. I've always maintained that this game was where Trap lost the dressing room, or at least the sizeable proportion of it that didn't get an opportunity to play even though we were already out. 



This for me too.

Every other tournament we had some great memories. We made mistakes but we also had some luck too.

It’s was an extremely difficult group but we seemed to do everything wrong. 

But the last game was the final straw. Not giving other players a game was nothing short of a disgrace. 

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Originally posted by Jimmy Raggatip Jimmy Raggatip wrote:

full time v Sweden

thought we'd completely f**ked it and didn't expect us to get anything from Belgium or Italy
Come on, that's not even on the radar.
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2012 will live long in the memories of sh*t shows alright.

I remember thinking before the tournament like most nick 4 points from Croatia / Italy and we'd scrap through as we weren't getting anything against Spain.

I remember hearing the Spain v Italy result and thinking go out and get the win over Croatia and we're in a good position.

3 minutes in and it was just down hill, St. Ledger gave some little hope but as soon as Jelavic score it just was terrible.

As said didn't expect anything from Spain game but we were simply dreadful, I haven't even watched it back in years but if I remember correctly Spain went easy on us in the second half and in sense 4-0 was probably flattering as it could have been more.

The Italy game as people have said it was a dead rubber not giving some other players a chance to play in a major tournament was probably Traps downfall.

Overall as people said the preparation for the tournament was a farce, we overtrained, certain players were injured/not 100% fit and I believe the team stayed in the Ayia Napa of Poland i.e. party central not great for preparing for a tournament
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Trap naming his starting 11 v Croatia a week before the game. 

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Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

2012 will live long in the memories of sh*t shows alright.

I remember thinking before the tournament like most nick 4 points from Croatia / Italy and we'd scrap through as we weren't getting anything against Spain.

I remember hearing the Spain v Italy result and thinking go out and get the win over Croatia and we're in a good position.

3 minutes in and it was just down hill, St. Ledger gave some little hope but as soon as Jelavic score it just was terrible.

As said didn't expect anything from Spain game but we were simply dreadful, I haven't even watched it back in years but if I remember correctly Spain went easy on us in the second half and in sense 4-0 was probably flattering as it could have been more.

The Italy game as people have said it was a dead rubber not giving some other players a chance to play in a major tournament was probably Traps downfall.

Overall as people said the preparation for the tournament was a farce, we overtrained, certain players were injured/not 100% fit and I believe the team stayed in the Ayia Napa of Poland i.e. party central not great for preparing for a tournament

In my darker moments, I felt the eventual outcome of Euro 2012 was inevitable. The Russian games in 2010 and 2011 should have given us a clue. A fortuitous penalty decision in Dublin potentially stopped a 0-5 defeat that night, and but for some heroic defending and blind luck, we escaped from Moscow with a 0-0 draw after being hammered. We also looked blunt at home against Slovakia. We really made it to the finals on the back of wins against Armenia and Estonia, and when we met teams at the peak of their fitness and ambition, we were slaughtered.

I did watch the Spain highlights last year, and it makes for deeply uncomfortable watching. Our backline looks like something out of a Benny Hill sketch, as they were bamboozled by Spanish skill.

The Italy selection still baffles, and its always worth watching the video on RTÉ discussing the players left behind or on the bench. 
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Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Ah, the '94 one was an absolute howler, '90 was a bit unfortunate. Ball came to him swerving from the original shot and he saved it, was a bit unlucky it rebounded straight to Schillaci. 

It's become a bit of revisionism to chalk it down as a howler by some, no one was saying that at the time. The Jonk one was a horror show. You can see in the difference to his reaction to each goal which would be judged a big error by players. 
 
Yeah fair enough. I certainly don't think '90 falls into the 'absolute howler' category but it surely is an error, admittedly exacerbated by the unfortunate slip which immediately proceeded it. I'm sure if you asked the man himself he would accept he could have done better with it. There was fierce power on the strike and it was moving though, they are both mitigating factors as you point out.
 
Also no-one was saying anything like that at the time as the team was pretty much beyond criticism by that point. The term 'revisionism' often invokes negative connotations but that's generally due to it being confused with negationism (denial or distortion of factual events). There's no harm in using the passage of time to review something a bit more objectively and without the rose tinted glasses that we all rightly had on back in the day. Not that I'm looking to scapegoat the man either, I fully accept he was a fine keeper who bailed us out on several occasions and at the end of the day we simply weren't able to cause the Italians enough problems to deserve to progress anyway.
 
 
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Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Raggatip Jimmy Raggatip wrote:

full time v Sweden

thought we'd completely f**ked it and didn't expect us to get anything from Belgium or Italy
Come on, that's not even on the radar.
This
 
Sure, we came out of the ground after the Sweden match thinking 'we should have won that game'. But one of our worst moments at a tournament?  Not a chance! LOL
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Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Still can't forgive Shay Given for Euro 2012.    

In fairness there was more than just players playing through the pain barrier. The nonsense for leaving Coleman at home etc made the tournament a real farce.


Dave O'LEARY was left out of the Euro 88 squad as was Liam BRADY.  I didn't have a big issue with Coleman as he was young and had a poor season at Everton.  Trap probably overtrained the players and should have dropped Dunne and Given and taken the decision out of their hands.

Given said he couldn't jump off his left leg FFS and was getting treatment off the German team doctor on the day of the Croatia match unknown to everybody.  He went way down in my estimation that day.
 
Brady was suspended for the first two games but got injured and wouldn't have made it anyway.
 
Back to the thread, regarding finals, McGrath's header hitting the post in Gelsenkirchen followed then by Kieft's jammy offside goal (when offside meant offside), absolute sickners.
 
Soviet game, we had the most blatant peno ever when Dasaev nearly broke Galvin in two and then still at 1-0 when we had the Soviets on their knees, Aldo missed an absolute sitter from a Galvin cross. That gets forgotten in an outstanding performance from us.
 
Italia 90, Egypt was truly sh*t and we were never gonna be allowed to beat the Italians so I'd give Packy a bit of a break on the goal.  I wouldn't give him a break however for Jonk's goal in 94, horrific.
 
I wouldn't put Gdansk in 2012 as a particularly sickening game, Spain were at the top of their game back then and we were carrying a few players and we were ruthlessly exposed and that I saw Iniesta at his brilliant best tempers that game a lot for me. The other two games we were horrific, absolutely.
 
2002 for worst moments it doesn't really go past Saipan for me, what a crock of sh*t.
 
France 2016, Bordeaux is down there with Egypt and Norway for the sheer ineptitude of the performance.   At least we didn't lose against Egypt or Norway and they proved crucial points, but Jaysus we were absolutely deplorable in Bordeaux.  People were giving out that many of us went on the lash that night, but for Jaysus sake we'd witnessed 90 plus depressingly bad minutes, we needed something to make that day somewhat less sh*te.
 
Good thread. Clap


Edited by FREEWHEELER - 20 Jun 2019 at 4:12pm
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