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Dalymount79 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by ConorMac77 ConorMac77 wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by nvidic nvidic wrote:

That's surely a positive for us? 
Correct, the lower Nations League we're in the better. Ideally, you'd have a sh1t nations league ranking and a great qualifiers ranking (World Ranking)
So our relegation to League C for the next NL won't come back to haunt us after all as I thought it would (when it seemed like only teams in Leagues A and B would be in the play-offs)? Thank God for that. Clap

Incidentally, the qualifying draw is 19th July 2019 according to Wikipedia - that clearly won't be happening now. LOL



Well it can - they are drawing ten qualifying groups and the ten winners qualify automatically. That's all that needs to be drawn at this stage. The exact format thereafter is a matter for decision but the first phase can be drawn without the format for the second stage having been decided.
Where did you see there would be 10 groups?
10 group winners + league A winner + league B winner + playoff of league C/D winners is one way of distributing 13 spots.
With us in league C better opportunity than last couple of world cups.

Is is clear what ranking will be used FIFA or UEFA?
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Agreed, that's why there should only be 16 teams in the Euros. The decision to make it 24 was the first piece of stupidity here.
Kosovo are unlucky in that they are a new member. 

The whole thing really is farcical. I used to laugh at the GAA and their 'back door' but it is far more logical than this mess. It really is a shame as the NL is great, but it is dragging down the Euros as much as it is removing friendlies.

I agree with you regarding the expansion of the Euros from 16-24 teams. Any format where 3rd placed teams can qualify from a 4 team group is a flawed one. I thought FIFA were correct to expand the World Cup from 24-32 teams for that very reason. 32 is the perfect number for a World Cup and the latest expansion to 48 teams will really dilute the quality of the tournament. The only small positive with the 24 team Euros is I don’t think the Nations League would have worked without the golden carrot of a Euro 2020 playoff spot. It’s a big statement but I really think the Nations League is one of UEFA greatest ever creations. International Football was really bland and lacking for some time now outside of major tournaments. The likes of Spain and Germany would just destroy the likes of Estonia and Lithuania in Euros and World Cup qualifiers or play a rather meaningless friendly that lacked any intensity. The likes of Gibraltar and Armenia realistically have no chance of qualifying and rarely ever win since they’re constantly playing higher ranked sides in qualifiers. The Nations League allows the likes of Spain and Germany to get competitive Fixtures against other top teams outside of tournaments and it also allows the Gibraltar and Armenia’s to play competitive Fixtures against similarly matched opponents. It’s a tournament which I can only see going from strength to strength as years go by.
 


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Originally posted by Dalymount79 Dalymount79 wrote:


Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by ConorMac77 ConorMac77 wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by nvidic nvidic wrote:

That's surely a positive for us? 
Correct, the lower Nations League we're in the better. Ideally, you'd have a sh1t nations league ranking and a great qualifiers ranking (World Ranking)
So our relegation to League C for the next NL won't come back to haunt us after all as I thought it would (when it seemed like only teams in Leagues A and B would be in the play-offs)? Thank God for that. Clap

Incidentally, the qualifying draw is 19th July 2019 according to Wikipedia - that clearly won't be happening now. LOL



Well it can - they are drawing ten qualifying groups and the ten winners qualify automatically. That's all that needs to be drawn at this stage. The exact format thereafter is a matter for decision but the first phase can be drawn without the format for the second stage having been decided.
Where did you see there would be 10 groups?
10 group winners + league A winner + league B winner + playoff of league C/D winners is one way of distributing 13 spots.
With us in league C better opportunity than last couple of world cups.

Is is clear what ranking will be used FIFA or UEFA?

I think it’s very unlikely League C and D will get a playoff spot for the World Cup. What they’re thinking of doing is having 10 Qualifying groups (5 with 5 teams and 5 with 6 teams) like the Euro 2020 Qualifying format at present but the 10 group winners directly qualify for Qatar 2022 and the 10 runner ups enter the playoffs. The 10 runner ups will be joined by 2 teams from the Nations League which I assume would be the highest ranked teams in League A and B who hadn’t already qualified. The 12 teams will be divided into 3 playoff paths for the last 3 qualifying berths. So just like the Euro 2020 playoffs there would be a one legged semi final and final. All will likely be confirmed in UEFA’s meeting on September 24th.
“Randolph sends it long…and Shane Long is in behind the German defence… Shane Long against Neuer…. 1-0!.. What a moment!”
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Originally posted by AonSceal19 AonSceal19 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Agreed, that's why there should only be 16 teams in the Euros. The decision to make it 24 was the first piece of stupidity here.
Kosovo are unlucky in that they are a new member. 

The whole thing really is farcical. I used to laugh at the GAA and their 'back door' but it is far more logical than this mess. It really is a shame as the NL is great, but it is dragging down the Euros as much as it is removing friendlies.

I agree with you regarding the expansion of the Euros from 16-24 teams. Any format where 3rd placed teams can qualify from a 4 team group is a flawed one. I thought FIFA were correct to expand the World Cup from 24-32 teams for that very reason. 32 is the perfect number for a World Cup and the latest expansion to 48 teams will really dilute the quality of the tournament. The only small positive with the 24 team Euros is I don’t think the Nations League would have worked without the golden carrot of a Euro 2020 playoff spot. It’s a big statement but I really think the Nations League is one of UEFA greatest ever creations. International Football was really bland and lacking for some time now outside of major tournaments. The likes of Spain and Germany would just destroy the likes of Estonia and Lithuania in Euros and World Cup qualifiers or play a rather meaningless friendly that lacked any intensity. The likes of Gibraltar and Armenia realistically have no chance of qualifying and rarely ever win since they’re constantly playing higher ranked sides in qualifiers. The Nations League allows the likes of Spain and Germany to get competitive Fixtures against other top teams outside of tournaments and it also allows the Gibraltar and Armenia’s to play competitive Fixtures against similarly matched opponents. It’s a tournament which I can only see going from strength to strength as years go by.
 


I agree on the NL, but my frustration is with the need to mix it in with other tournaments and qualifying events. I really don't see why the carrot was needed. The NL should be about natural progression and regression of teams. So those promoted will then be better seeded and ranked for the qualifying draws. That should be enough of a carrot. 

I don't believe international football had gone stale, or if it had it certainly wasn't anywhere near as stale as the boring carve-up that is elite European club and franchise football, but what makes it interesting, for me at least,  is the meritocratic nature of it. Qualifying a team from the fourth band of nations undermines that in itself, never mind that the status of qualifying games has been diminished somewhat as a result. For example; are Georgia really taking the group seriously when they know they have a genuine shot through the playoffs? Or, having been  beaten by Kazakhstan, are Scotland just trying things out until their playoff?

It makes everything really messy and untidy. Unless there is some sensible and logical progression, a tournament should stand on its own merits.

When you add the ridiculous Euro 2020 schedule and a World Cup in Qatar, it makes you think that even when they have a good idea they make a pig's ear out of it!
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Originally posted by Dalymount79 Dalymount79 wrote:

Where did you see there would be 10 groups?


In the first post. It looks like there'll be twelve playoff spots for three places. Thankfully they can play the playoffs in March 2022 because the actual World Cup won't be til December.

Incidentally, they could draw the groups now and have the finals of the Nations League in summer 2022 rather than 2021. Alternatively, they could have the Nations League final in summer 2021, then have the 2022 qualifying groups finish in March 2022, with the playoffs in June 2022. That way there'd be no need to have the Nations League winners in qualifying groups of five.

Of course, that all depends on how long the summer break actually is in 2022; with the World Cup taking about eight weeks out of the calendar through November and December, they'll need to made up somewhere. It'll probably require the season to start a month early and end a month late. The tournament is from 21 November to 18 December, and FIFA regulations only require players to be released on the Monday the week before the tournament starts (I think), in this case 14 November. I'd imagine that'll be lengthened and they'll end regular season games on Sunday 6 November.

I like the playoff format of four teams playing for one place. It makes a playoff much less of a safety net and encourages teams to set out to win the group and not settle for playoff places. Certainly, it should encourage us to want to qualify automatically, rather than relying on a playoff. They are nowhere near the same level of safety net they were previously.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 16 Jun 2019 at 6:26pm
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by AonSceal19 AonSceal19 wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Agreed, that's why there should only be 16 teams in the Euros. The decision to make it 24 was the first piece of stupidity here.
Kosovo are unlucky in that they are a new member. 

The whole thing really is farcical. I used to laugh at the GAA and their 'back door' but it is far more logical than this mess. It really is a shame as the NL is great, but it is dragging down the Euros as much as it is removing friendlies.

I agree with you regarding the expansion of the Euros from 16-24 teams. Any format where 3rd placed teams can qualify from a 4 team group is a flawed one. I thought FIFA were correct to expand the World Cup from 24-32 teams for that very reason. 32 is the perfect number for a World Cup and the latest expansion to 48 teams will really dilute the quality of the tournament. The only small positive with the 24 team Euros is I don’t think the Nations League would have worked without the golden carrot of a Euro 2020 playoff spot. It’s a big statement but I really think the Nations League is one of UEFA greatest ever creations. International Football was really bland and lacking for some time now outside of major tournaments. The likes of Spain and Germany would just destroy the likes of Estonia and Lithuania in Euros and World Cup qualifiers or play a rather meaningless friendly that lacked any intensity. The likes of Gibraltar and Armenia realistically have no chance of qualifying and rarely ever win since they’re constantly playing higher ranked sides in qualifiers. The Nations League allows the likes of Spain and Germany to get competitive Fixtures against other top teams outside of tournaments and it also allows the Gibraltar and Armenia’s to play competitive Fixtures against similarly matched opponents. It’s a tournament which I can only see going from strength to strength as years go by.
 


I agree on the NL, but my frustration is with the need to mix it in with other tournaments and qualifying events. I really don't see why the carrot was needed. The NL should be about natural progression and regression of teams. So those promoted will then be better seeded and ranked for the qualifying draws. That should be enough of a carrot. 

I don't believe international football had gone stale, or if it had it certainly wasn't anywhere near as stale as the boring carve-up that is elite European club and franchise football, but what makes it interesting, for me at least,  is the meritocratic nature of it. Qualifying a team from the fourth band of nations undermines that in itself, never mind that the status of qualifying games has been diminished somewhat as a result. For example; are Georgia really taking the group seriously when they know they have a genuine shot through the playoffs? Or, having been  beaten by Kazakhstan, are Scotland just trying things out until their playoff?

It makes everything really messy and untidy. Unless there is some sensible and logical progression, a tournament should stand on its own merits.


The only thing about this is that there are still two places from every group for automatic qualification. It should be possible for a third seed or a particularly in form fourth seed to have a realistic shot at qualification, plus forfeiting your qualifiers to experiment in advance of the playoffs is a really high risk strategy for a third seed, where the playoffs are only a one in four shot. Now, if you are Scotland, Georgia, Norway or Macedonia, knowing you have a home playoff in the first game, it is a little different, but not massively so. I don't really think any of them are experimenting or doing anything other than setting out to win in their qualification games.
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I think teams set out to get a result in every game, even friendlies. People who participate in sports are competitive. The difference is when there is a safety net it doesn't become as important and as soon as you start blurring the lines  between the tournaments and questions can be asked then you have lost something from the Euros. 
I am not suggesting it is a strategy, but the fact that results from another competition can come in to play will impact on the mindset of teams. I am not a fan of that in any way and I think it takes from two competitions.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think teams set out to get a result in every game, even friendlies. People who participate in sports are competitive. The difference is when there is a safety net it doesn't become as important and as soon as you start blurring the lines  between the tournaments and questions can be asked then you have lost something from the Euros. 
I am not suggesting it is a strategy, but the fact that results from another competition can come in to play will impact on the mindset of teams. I am not a fan of that in any way and I think it takes from two competitions.

YEah but managers are far more likely to play b temas in friendlies than nations leagues. Also, FA's being forced to play teams around them rather than Oman or Argentina
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Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I think teams set out to get a result in every game, even friendlies. People who participate in sports are competitive. The difference is when there is a safety net it doesn't become as important and as soon as you start blurring the lines  between the tournaments and questions can be asked then you have lost something from the Euros. 
I am not suggesting it is a strategy, but the fact that results from another competition can come in to play will impact on the mindset of teams. I am not a fan of that in any way and I think it takes from two competitions.

YEah but managers are far more likely to play b temas in friendlies than nations leagues. Also, FA's being forced to play teams around them rather than Oman or Argentina
Are they more likely to play 'B' teams in qualifiers than NL games? My problem isn't the possible answer, but the fact that they question can be taken seriously.
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Winners of Leagues C and D in the NL get a place at Euro 2020.
I can’t see the countries in Leagues C and D going along with only League A and B getting a shot at WC qualification.
Why should they miss out on the back door?
FIFA have given UEFA 13 places at WC 2022, so it’s up to UEFA to include Leagues C and D, otherwise they won’t take it seriously,
Leagues C and D have 31 teams, League A and B only have 24, so they could outvote it.
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Originally posted by GB 1HughJarse GB 1HughJarse wrote:

Winners of Leagues C and D in the NL get a place at Euro 2020.
I can’t see the countries in Leagues C and D going along with only League A and B getting a shot at WC qualification.
Why should they miss out on the back door?
FIFA have given UEFA 13 places at WC 2022, so it’s up to UEFA to include Leagues C and D, otherwise they won’t take it seriously,
Leagues C and D have 31 teams, League A and B only have 24, so they could outvote it.

Well it would give an incentive for League C and D teams to continuously strive for promotion to League B and A. The one problem with giving playoff spots to League C and D is it could incentivise teams to get relegated to benefit from an easier playoff path next season. If League A and B only got a playoff spot then it would largely put a stop to that. And the fact that we got relegated from League B and are still almost guaranteed to get a playoff spot highlights the advantages of being in a higher league. In League C and D you are very unlikely to get a playoff spot unless you win your group.
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don’t see c and d getting a playoff spot, but would like it to be included somehow (playoff for a playoff where the winner of D plays the winner of C who plays the winner of B for a playoff spot or something like that). 
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Originally posted by cildaratown cildaratown wrote:

don’t see c and d getting a playoff spot, but would like it to be included somehow (playoff for a playoff where the winner of D plays the winner of C who plays the winner of B for a playoff spot or something like that). 


Playoff for a playoff for a playoff.....that’s UEFA heaven
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To be fair, we're struggling to qualify for a tournament that top 24 get into. Whatever the format, we're gonna struggle to get to the top 13
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Originally posted by ConorMac77 ConorMac77 wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by nvidic nvidic wrote:

That's surely a positive for us? 
Correct, the lower Nations League we're in the better. Ideally, you'd have a sh1t nations league ranking and a great qualifiers ranking (World Ranking)
So our relegation to League C for the next NL won't come back to haunt us after all as I thought it would (when it seemed like only teams in Leagues A and B would be in the play-offs)? Thank God for that. Clap

Incidentally, the qualifying draw is 19th July 2019 according to Wikipedia - that clearly won't be happening now. LOL


Is the 2022 World Cup qualifying draw really on 19 July? I haven’t seen anything about it anywhere.

The preliminary qualifying matches have already started in Asia for 2022, and yet we STILL do not have a logo for Qatar 2022. Kind of implies that somebody isn’t so sure of it going ahead there...
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Originally posted by newrynyuk newrynyuk wrote:

Originally posted by ConorMac77 ConorMac77 wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by nvidic nvidic wrote:

That's surely a positive for us? 
Correct, the lower Nations League we're in the better. Ideally, you'd have a sh1t nations league ranking and a great qualifiers ranking (World Ranking)
So our relegation to League C for the next NL won't come back to haunt us after all as I thought it would (when it seemed like only teams in Leagues A and B would be in the play-offs)? Thank God for that. Clap

Incidentally, the qualifying draw is 19th July 2019 according to Wikipedia - that clearly won't be happening now. LOL


Is the 2022 World Cup qualifying draw really on 19 July? I haven’t seen anything about it anywhere.

The preliminary qualifying matches have already started in Asia for 2022, and yet we STILL do not have a logo for Qatar 2022. Kind of implies that somebody isn’t so sure of it going ahead there...

It was in the official FIFA calendar until a month or so ago but it has vanished from it since then.  The mention of it has also been removed from Wikipedia so it looks like the draw won't now be happening in July.
 
In any case, as I mentioned in an earlier post, they can't exactly do the draw when they won't know until November 2020 which teams will be playing in the Nations' League Final 4 in June 2021 and would therefore need to be drawn into 5-team groups.
 
Sure, even if they were able to do the draw next month, we wouldn't be able to book anything immediately with qualifying not starting till March 2021.  Cry
 
 


Edited by ConorMac77 - 18 Jun 2019 at 9:09am
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