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Champions League Final - Liverpool v Tottenham
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Devrozex Devrozex wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/0604/1053378-new-football-rules-wont-apply-to-euro-2020-qualifiers/
 
Interestingly enough this article actually completely contradicts the end of the RTE article - i.e saying the decision was more likely to be given as a penalty under the rule changes rather than less likely:
 

That article nails it in one pithy sentence:
"With his arm already outstretched, it is quite clear that Sissoko did not “deliberately” handle the ball."
(The key word is "already")

Anyhow moving on to the new Law which will be in place from next season, as that article also points out, the requirement for deliberate intent will effectively be removed, leaving even entirely accidental contact to be deemed "handball".

Now consider Liverpool's second goal in the game:



In that picture, Alderweireld is doing everything physically possible to avoid hand contact with the ball. Yet had Origi aimed for the top corner of the net, rather than the bottom corner, the ball might very well have struck Alderweireld on his left sleeve.

And next season, that would be a penalty!

How is that fair? Confused

EDIT: Why does the feckin picture link not work half the time?
Anyhow, the link is here, if anyone can post it up:


Edited by Territorial - 04 Jun 2019 at 2:09pm
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

The deliberate word is totally wrong in the rule book I’ve always said 
Does that mean that when officiating in a match, referees should just be permitted to ignore the specific wording of a relevant Law entirely? You know, wording which has existed essentially unchanged for over a century?

Wow!

"Listen officer, I know the Highway Code says the maximum speed limit is 70 mph, and I was doing 95 mph, but I've always said the wording in the Code is totally wrong. Totally wrong, I tell ye"
 
Its a pointless argument to make for the vast majority of penalties, as most of them, unless they're Suarez v Ghana type incidents, are not deliberate.
 
 
You tried to argue last night in your post that it couldn't be a penalty as Sissoko's handball wasn't deliberate. That's nonsense. It may not have been deliberate, but that doesn't make it not a penalty. The vast majority of penalties given for hand ball are not deliberate hand balls.
Therefore the word deliberate is pointless in the rule book and obsolete in arguing about the majority of penalty decisions.
 
 
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

His arm was in an ‘unnatural position’ FFS.

It states that in the Law too Terri !!!!

It doesnt matter if it hits 15 players and the crossbar and then hits his arm, its a peno
Jesus Christ on a bike!

I was going to explain, for the nth time, my reasoning as to why that's not applicable in this instance (i.e it doesn't pass the prior "deliberate" test). 

But you know what?

Faced with an entirely out-of-context comment like that, I suspect I'd have better luck trying to trying to explain Perspective to Father Dougal:




Edited by Territorial - 04 Jun 2019 at 2:26pm
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Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

His arm was in an ‘unnatural position’ FFS.

It states that in the Law too Terri !!!!

It doesnt matter if it hits 15 players and the crossbar and then hits his arm, its a peno
 
What is a "natural" position for an arm to be on a football pitch ?
 
On a serious note, throughout every match players are pointing at their own players to track opponents, gesticulating at team mates, appealing for decisions etc. etc. I think Sissoko had his hand up to make his own teamn mates aware of someone coming in at the back post. Clever thinking of Mane to see this and aim for the arm..


Edited by Cabra Hoop - 04 Jun 2019 at 2:36pm
" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Its a pointless argument to make for the vast majority of penalties, as most of them, unless they're Suarez v Ghana type incidents, are not deliberate.
If, as you claim (entirely without evidence, btw), the "vast majority" of penalties given are not deliberate, then the vast majority of such decisions are wrong.

I would not make such a sweeping claim.

Or anything like it.

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

You tried to argue last night in your post that it couldn't be a penalty as Sissoko's handball wasn't deliberate. That's nonsense. It may not have been deliberate, but that doesn't make it not a penalty. The vast majority of penalties given for hand ball are not deliberate hand balls.
Therefore the word deliberate is pointless in the rule book and obsolete in arguing about the majority of penalty decisions.
"It may not have been deliberate, but that doesn't make it not a penalty".

So you concede that it may not have been deliberate, yet you still consider that it deserved to be given as a penalty, despite the very first line of the relevant Law stating:
HANDLING THE BALL

It is an offence if a player: 
  •   deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball;

OK, you originally decided that it was a penalty, fair enough - lot's of well-paid pundits etc, who might be expected to know and understand the Laws of the game agreed.

But when it is pointed out to you in black and white that for it to constitute "handball, the contact has to be deliberate, you stick to your guns, even while accepting that Sissoko's contact "may not have been deliberate" [sic].

"Ah you see, ref, I know that's what it says in the rules, but you have to ignore them, since it doesn't suit me. In fact, they're very inconvenient..." 


Edited by Territorial - 04 Jun 2019 at 2:40pm
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Definite penalty. Case closed.
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Terri, are either of these penalties that were awarded in recent times deliberate hand balls? And also, tell me if you think the correct decision was made in either of them:
 
Danny Rose Spurs vs Man City
Kimpembe PSG vs Man United
 
 
 
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What about this one Terri?

A penalty, yes or no?
Deliberate, yes or no?
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Terri, are either of these penalties that were awarded in recent times deliberate hand balls? And also, tell me if you think the correct decision was made in either of them:
 
Danny Rose Spurs vs Man City
Kimpembe PSG vs Man United
Er, since when were referees required to officiate on the basis of other decisions by other referees in other matches, which may or may not have been correct? 

This smacks for all the world of someone losing their own argument, so pointing to someone elses to try to save them.

Or "whataboutery", as it's otherwise known.
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

What about this one Terri?

A penalty, yes or no?
Deliberate, yes or no?
 
See above answer.
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I made it as simple possible for you, all I was looking for was a yes or no to two questions on 3 different incidents. Deliberate yes or no, do you think it was a penalty yes or no. Simple.
 
no whataboutery here, just trying to back up my point that incidents can lead to deserved penalties when the handballs aren't deliberate. IMO the vast majority of penatlies awarded for handballs fall into this category.
 
Pogba example - he didn't deliberately handle the ball, but its definitely the correct decision
Same with Danny Rose.
 
 
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

I made it as simple possible for you, all I was looking for was a yes or no to two questions on 3 different incidents. Deliberate yes or no, do you think it was a penalty yes or no. Simple.
 
no whataboutery here, just trying to back up my point that incidents can lead to deserved penalties when the handballs aren't deliberate. IMO the vast majority of penatlies awarded for handballs fall into this category.
 
Pogba example - he didn't deliberately handle the ball, but its definitely the correct decision
Same with Danny Rose.
 
 
"IMO the vast majority of penatlies awarded for handballs fall into this category and for evidence, I cherry-pick 3 isolated examples out of hundreds every season, one or more of which may be correct, or incorrect, or inconclusive either way.

Oh, and none of them exactly like the Sissoko example."

Rumpole of the Bailey you ain't, that's for sure! LOL 


Edited by Territorial - 04 Jun 2019 at 3:33pm
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Well no handball in the box is deliberate unless it’s a defender punching it off the line with the keeper beaten, so all the other types of penalties awarded for handballs fall into this category that I’m referring to. Hence, the vast majority. 
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Well no handball in the box is deliberate unless it’s a defender punching it off the line with the keeper beaten, so all the other types of penalties awarded for handballs fall into this category that I’m referring to. Hence, the vast majority. 
Jeez, how to miss the point!

With all three of the examples you cited, the ball clearly struck the player's arm only. Now we could argue all day as to whether those should have been penalties (personally I thought all three were harsh, but just about arguable, I suppose).

But in any case, they are no more like Sissoko's case than eg a defender punching it off the line with the keeper beaten.

The difference being here that the ball struck Sissoko's chest first, meaning that regardless of his body shape etc, that contact simply could not have been a penalty.

Which leaves the referee to assess the second contact, which did hit his arm.

And it is my firm belief that it was perverse of the ref to determine that Sissoko could physically have reacted in time deliberately to handle a ball which flew off another part of his body virtually instantaneously.

Which interpretation is actually explicitly backed up if you scroll further down the guidance notes, to where they state:

... it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:


Note that they make a distinction between the ball coming off a player's own body and coming off that of another player. That is, they recognise that a player may have time to react should the ball deflect off another player, who may eg be several feet away, but accept that it is exceptionally difficult to react when it flies up from your own body, as in this case.


Edited by Territorial - 04 Jun 2019 at 3:56pm
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Thoughts? Considering IFAB have cleared up there is zero percent chance that the situation that happened Sissoko should ever be a penalty again?

My thoughts haven't changed. One replay is all I needed to conclude it was a penalty. Most refs these days have zero tolerance of handball in the box, that's why a pen was given in the World Cup Final, and why lots of other handballs were given as penalties in that tournament, why they've been given in this tournament, and will be given in next year's EPL.

The ref gave a pen, then Danny Makkelie and 3 other VAR officials saw no grounds to review or reverse the decision, and they know every rule inside out. VAR's see absolutely everything from every angle, and if they say it's a penalty, I trust their judgement. Most pundits and the press tbf agree it was the correct decision. No doubt you will still protest about it, but it's not going to change anything.

I love VAR. It helps out referees, it cuts down on dark arts football and it ensures the big decisions are correct. The only issue I have is communication levels. I want to hear what the refs are saying, it would be a massive help. It should all be in English, as it's their common language, but it doesn't have to be, there's enough translators around to sort that out, if the will is there to do it.  
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Well no handball in the box is deliberate unless it’s a defender punching it off the line with the keeper beaten, so all the other types of penalties awarded for handballs fall into this category that I’m referring to. Hence, the vast majority. 
Jeez, how to miss the point!

With all three of the examples you cited, the ball clearly struck the player's arm only. Now we could argue all day as to whether those should have been penalties (personally I thought all three were harsh, but just about arguable, I suppose).

But in any case, they are no more like Sissoko's case than eg a defender punching it off the line with the keeper beaten.

The difference being here that the ball struck Sissoko's chest first, meaning that regardless of his body shape etc, that contact simply could not have been a penalty.

Which leaves the referee to assess the second contact, which did hit his arm.

And it is my firm belief that it was perverse of the ref to determine that Sissoko could physically have reacted in time deliberately to handle a ball which flew off another part of his body virtually instantaneously.

Which interpretation is actually explicitly backed up if you scroll further down the guidance notes, to where they state:

... it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:


Note that they make a distinction between the ball coming off a player's own body and coming off that of another player. That is, they recognise that a player may have time to react should the ball deflect off another player, who may eg be several feet away, but accept that it is exceptionally difficult to react when it flies up from your own body, as in this case.
 
I think you've totally missed my point.
 
It wasn't necessarily in reference to the penalty in the final on Saturday night. More a general point and something that I've said numerous times on here over the years
 
It can be non deliberate and still be a penalty. Countless times a season we see this type of penalty rightly awarded. That's my point.
 
To say it wasn't a penalty because Sissoko didn't deliberately handle the ball is nonsense IMO. It may be an incorrect decision for other factors, but not this one. Sure what handballs in the box are actually deliberate?
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

 
I think you've totally missed my point.
 
It wasn't necessarily in reference to the penalty in the final on Saturday night. More a general point and something that I've said numerous times on here over the years

Pardon me for making that mistake. I mean, you only brought these other examples into it in the course of defending your stance over Sissoko. However could I have thought you were connecting them?  LOL

(Oh and btw, just because you say something "numerous times on here over the years" doesn't make it right.)

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

It can be non deliberate and still be a penalty.
Not according to the Law, it can't;
"It is an offence if a player...     ... deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm"

Inconvenient, isn't it? LOL

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Countless times a season we see this type of penalty 
"Countless"?

Occasionally, perhaps, but unless/until you can come up with some hard statistics, then 3 or 4 high-profile examples out of the hundreds given each season does not support your case.

Doesn't even come close, in fact.

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

...we see this type of penalty rightly awarded.
 
Unless a referee genuinely believes it to be deliberate, then it is not "right", it is the opposite, in fact ("incorrect", in case you're wondering.)

Or do you believe eg, that where a referee gives a penalty for a foul which TV subsequently showed to be outside the area, we should blithely ignore that particular requirement?

Yeah, that'll be it. Let's just heed the Laws of the game where it suits, and ignore them when it doesn't. Confused 

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

To say it wasn't a penalty because Sissoko didn't deliberately handle the ball is nonsense IMO. 
But it's not your opinion which counts, it's the Laws of the game.

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

It may be an incorrect decision for other factors, but not this one. Sure what handballs in the box are actually deliberate?
Some handballs are deliberate, some are not. It is for the referee to determine which is which.

And regardless of other (non-comparable) decisions in other matches featuring other referees etc, it will have been simply incorrect if the ref determined that handball does not have to be deliberate.

Alternatively, it will have been perverse of him to agree that handballs should be deliberate, and that Sissoko's contact was such. 

For not only do the actual circumstances make such an interpretation extremely difficult to sustain, but the guidance notes to the Law specifically state:

"... it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm...   ... directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)"
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I watch a lot of football and can't think of a single incident in the last season where a defender deliberately handled the ball in the box, unless he's punching it off the line to prevent a goal, which rightly results in a red card.
 
Not one.
 
You're distorting the argument as usual with needless paragraph after paragraph.
 
The word deliberate is pointless when discussing handballs in the box, unless its the ones that result in a red card.
 
 
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