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It's the Stephen Kenny Thread
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton


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Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Originally posted by Greenie50 Greenie50 wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

I dont think be should be in ahead of those, my point was: its easy for people to look past the level the player is playing out while clamouring for one player but then use the same argument of level the player is playing at while clamouring for a player who missed out to someone playing at a lower level or not getting their game. 


Thought Clark was poor in March. When the squad was announce for last months games, to be frank I said Omobamidele shouldn't be anywhere near it over Clark or Lenihan, but he proved me wrong. Omobamidele's displays vs Portugal & Serbia were a mile ahead of Clark.

Though Kenny did say yesterday Clark was hoping to be available for the November games, so maybe he's actually carrying an injury.


Strikes me more as a basic answer rather than possibly giving the truth of why Clark wasn't selected. Backs to the wall defending deep he's grand, but when the RCB and LCB are asked to push forward and join in with attacking play he's just not good enough. He was also poor back in March, especially his defending against Serbia.

Egan and Duffy are clearly first choice, Omobamidele showed how comfortable he is with the ball last month, and Collins can also cover RB if it's needed. Plus he's got a size advantage and more comfortable with the ball at his feet. Can't see him losing out in the air and would more of threat at set pieces.

I agree Egan/Duffy/Omo are first choice. The latter's talent is obvious but neither Duffy nor Egan are better on the ball than Clark. The turnaround in Duffy's form is amazing - but it's a stretch to believe he's now miraculously a Kenny play-out CB. Egan is solid but there was little interest to keep him in the EPL. Collins hasn't played a match this season (or an EPL game) - so is he better for cover than an experienced EPL defender? Also, can you provide a link for Kenny's comment (re injury) on Clark please. 


No one said he's miraculously become a Kenny play out players, but he's playing in a team week in week out that play how Kenny wants his defenders to play with the ball. He's also playing central where I'm talking about the positions either side of him.

If Clark was better on the ball he'd clearly be first choice and starting at LCB but he's not. And I wouldn't be reading much into Egan not getting a move back to the EPL. Has three years left on his contract and Sheffield United don't need to sell. Would take a pretty penny to make Sheffield United sell one of their better players. Especially with Jack O'Connell suffering a set back and now out over 12 months.

No I'd rather see Collins get the game time against Qatar or come on and make an impact like Omobamidele did rather than Clark being in to make up the numbers. Same way I'd rather Jack Taylor in than Arter because we've enough cover with the others to cover both games and could give Taylor minutes against Qatar.

Sterile cut-and-paste reply. 


Insightful response, would read again

I avoid Parkinson's Law, it's gone viral here. Have you a link to Kenny's Clark reference? 


Doesn't stop you talking a lot of drivel.

And I'm not Google, look for it yourself or ask the person that mentioned it
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

People now having a go at his speech impediment. Lord save us Ermm

I know a Dublin accent is hard enough to listen to at the best of times but it's a bit of a stretch to call it a speech impediment. LOL
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Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Have you a link to Kenny's Clark reference? 


It's from the press conference yesterday.
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:

Championship is a decent standard. Just look at the budgets they have compared to most Euro leagues.

How many players do Italy have in it? France? Spain? Portugal? Germany? 

It's an awful standard of football and it's for mediocre teams with mediocre players. Norwich are already down, Watford will probably join them, that's 2 of the relegation spots sorted already. Wolves are sliding down the EPL table. Even Leeds are now struggling to stay the pace..

This is the World Cup, not the Leinster Senior League. Only 13 teams qualify from Europe, 40+ fail to get beyond this stage, let alone join the usual teams who make it. It's a very high standard of football, and if your players are not up to it, you'll be found out soon enough. Unfortunately, we already know our fate, so all we can do is plan for the future. And the only way we can afford it is to let Kenny get on with it. 


Edited by planning - 02 Oct 2021 at 12:11am
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Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:

Championship is a decent standard. Just look at the budgets they have compared to most Euro leagues.
It's an awful standard of football and it's for mediocre teams with mediocre players.

There ya go again.

Just because you claim something doesn't make it so. Where is your evidence for such a claim?

I provided clear, objective research-based evidence (29 September, pg 387) to the contrary, namely a report which ranked the Championship as the 9th league in Europe, ahead of  Belgium, Austria, Turkey, Switzerland, Denmark, Scotland, Bundesliga 2, Greece, Norway, Italy Serie B, Spain's Segunda, France Ligue 2 and Sweden:
https://www.globalfootballrankings.com/

You totally ignored it.

Here is some more objective, research-based evidence, this time from the widely respected FiveThirtyEight, which ranks the top 627 football clubs in the world in order:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/global-club-rankings/

If you take the top 200 European clubs (i.e. down to Panathinaikos at 251), it ranks them as follows.

Obviously the top places are dominated by the clubs in the Big Five leagues. But once you get past those, the Championship still has 14 clubs in the top 200. Compare this with Bundesliga2 (3 clubs), La Liga Segunda (2 clubs),  France's Ligue 2 (1 club) and Serie 'B' (1 club).

Or if you take it beyond the Big Five, Netherland's Eredivisie and Portugal's Prim.Liga only have 14 clubs too.

While Russi'a PL has 8, Belgium's 1st DivisionA has 6, Austria's BL has 5, Greece's SL 4 and the Scottish PL just 3 (OF and Hibs, who scrape in at 197, behind all 14 Championship clubs).

But as a fan of Championship football myself, I'm still open to your evidence to the contrary.

If you have any.




Edited by Territorial - 02 Oct 2021 at 6:14pm
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:

Championship is a decent standard. Just look at the budgets they have compared to most Euro leagues.
It's an awful standard of football and it's for mediocre teams with mediocre players.

There ya go again.

Just because you claim something doesn't make it so. Where is your evidence for such a claim?

I provided clear, objective research-based evidence (29 September, pg 387) to the contrary, namely a report which ranked the Championship as the 9th league in Europe, ahead of  Belgium, Austria, Turkey, Switzerland, Denmark, Scotland, Bundesliga 2, Greece, Norway, Italy Serie B, Spain's Segunda, France Ligue 2 and Sweden:

You totally ignored it.

Here is some more objective, research-based evidence, this time from the widely respected FiveThirtyEight, which ranks the top 627 football clubs in the world in order:

If you take the top 200 European clubs (i.e. down to Panathinaikos at 251), it ranks them as follows.

Obviously the top places are dominated by the clubs in the Big Five leagues. But once you get past those, the Championship still has 14 clubs in the top 200. Compare this with Bundesliga2 (3 clubs), La Liga Segunda (2 clubs),  France's Ligue 2 (1 club) and Serie 'B' (1 club).

Or if you take it beyond the Big Five, Netherland's Eredivisie and Portugal's Prim.Liga only have 14 clubs too.

While Russi'a PL has 8, Belgium's 1st DivisionA has 6, Austria's BL has 5, Greece's SL 4 and the Scottish PL just 3 (OF and Hibs, who scrape in at 197, behind all 14 Championship clubs).

But as a fan of Championship football myself, I'm still open to your evidence to the contrary.

If you have any.

Thanks for that Terri, some people will never let the facts get in the way of a good polemic!
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

You totally ignored it.

But as a fan of Championship football myself, I'm still open to your evidence to the contrary.

If you have any.

It was already posted. You have decided to dismiss it, which is your right. 

I am going to return the favour and dismiss the idea that second tier football in England, (or any other country for that matter) should be used to determine how high a level of football is. As said before, it's the second tier for a reason, that everyone in it tries their level best to get the hell out of.

You can post as many links as you want, but the evidence from Ireland games themselves (and your own) demonstrates that players who play their club football at that level, (if they are playing at all) are not up to international standard and qualifying for major tournaments. A brief glimpse at the nation's record books over the past 20-30 years will tell you that alone.
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Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

You totally ignored it.

But as a fan of Championship football myself, I'm still open to your evidence to the contrary.

If you have any.
It was already posted. You have decided to dismiss it, which is your right.

I cannot "dismiss" what doesn't exist (opinion does not equal evidence).

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

I am going to return the favour and dismiss the idea that second tier football in England, (or any other country for that matter) should be used to determine how high a level of football is. As said before, it's the second tier for a reason, that everyone in it tries their level best to get the hell out of.

You cannot discount a league merely because it is "second tier", as if eg the Kosovan second tier is of the same standard as the German second tier - there is obviously a gradation of standards.

On which point the English Championship is second to the strongest league in the world, has 24 f-t clubs, with two (arguably three) f-t professional divisions below that.

No other league in the world can claim that strength in depth, or come even close.

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

You can post as many links as you want, but the evidence from Ireland games themselves (and your own) demonstrates that players who play their club football at that level, (if they are playing at all) are not up to international standard and qualifying for major tournaments. A brief glimpse at the nation's record books over the past 20-30 years will tell you that alone.

For the purposes of this debate, no-one is talking about "qualifying for major tournaments etc". Rather in ROI's case, we're talking about avoiding finishing 4th in the group, or even (eek!) 5th.

But if you do want to widen it out to qualifying, consider this.

For the 2016 Euro's, ROI's 23-man squad was compriised of the following:
EPL - 12 players (none from the Big Six);
Championship - 10
MLS - 1 (Robbie K at LA Galaxy)

Meanwhile, NI's squad was as follows:
EPL - 5
Championship - 8
Lge One - 4
Lge Two - 1
SPL - 4 (Aberdeen, Hamilton, Killie, St.Johnstone)
Australia (Aaron Hughes at Melbourne Glory)

Even Wales had their share of 2nd tier players:
EPL - 11
Championship - 9
SPL - 2 (Aberdeen, ICT)
La Liga - 1 (Bale, obviously).

Now you can argue that the present ROI squad has more lower league players than the above. But back then you not only qualified for France, but you got out of your group once you got there. Same for NI, who also had got to France in the first place by topping our qualifying group.

As for Wales, whilst they had a world class Bale on top form, they also got all the way to the Semi's, which is a far, far cry from eg Kenny trying to squeeze in in 3rd in your qualifying group.

Or do you still reckon he hasn't the players to achieve that more modest target?

[Btw, for anyone else who's eyes haven't already glazed over Wink, I am making these points not to have a pop at SK or ROI etc, but rather to redress tha balance over the English 2nd tier, which 'planning' seems determined to trash, for whatever end.]


Edited by Territorial - 04 Oct 2021 at 4:25pm
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Ray Houghton
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You might not dismiss it as it makes up most of your argument. But UEFA do it all the time. As said before, UEFA don't dish out European qualifying spots on the strength of the nation's second tier. 

And secondly this is the World Cup, not the Euros. Or even the Euros in 2016. In the past 20 years, Ireland have reached the 2002 World Cup. You've never got there. Scotland have never got there. And as for Wales, they have no memory of what qualifying for the World Cup Finals looks like. All the squads are dominated by Championship level footballers. And then they wonder why they can't get to tournaments. How many managers have been sacked/resigned across all 4 nations in that time trying to make it work?

As for us, this campaign was not about getting to the World Cup, as the players we had are past their best before date, and the new ones we have are not ready yet. There is one automatic qualification spot available, which we were never in contention for and haven't got. (as is the case in your own group) So it's become a development campaign where giving new players game time is more important by playing a different way, than whether we beat Luxembourg or not. The pragmatic approach has been tried again and again over the past 20 years and it has failed. So we're not repeating it in this campaign. Of course that is a radical change from what's gone before and the loudest voices here don't like it very much, but like it or not they have to put up with it.


Edited by planning - 04 Oct 2021 at 6:18pm
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Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

You might not dismiss it as it makes up most of your argument. But UEFA do it all the time. As said before, UEFA don't dish out European qualifying spots on the strength of the nation's second tier. 

And secondly this is the World Cup, not the Euros. Or even the Euros in 2016. In the past 20 years, Ireland have reached the 2002 World Cup. You've never got there. Scotland have never got there. And as for Wales, they have no memory of what qualifying for the World Cup Finals looks like. All the squads are dominated by Championship level footballers. And then they wonder why they can't get to tournaments. How many managers have been sacked/resigned across all 4 nations in that time trying to make it work?

As for us, this campaign was not about getting to the World Cup, as the players we had are past their best before date, and the new ones we have are not ready yet. There is one automatic qualification spot available, which we were never in contention for and haven't got. (as is the case in your own group) So it's become a development campaign where giving new players game time is more important by playing a different way, than whether we beat Luxembourg or not. The pragmatic approach has been tried again and again over the past 20 years and it has failed. So we're not repeating it in this campaign. Of course that is a radical change from what's gone before and the loudest voices here don't like it very much, but like it or not they have to put up with it.

The Championship is a good league and Terri has backed it up. You have no answer just waffle 


Edited by Stickittotheman - 04 Oct 2021 at 7:43pm
Walters coming back from an offside position but Shane Long was definitely onside- Shane Lonnggggggg.... has done it!!!!
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The answers have been provided and backed up. Sorry you don't like it, but so be it. 

If it was that good a league, people in every capacity from players to CEO's  wouldn't be desperate to get out of it, and our players in it would be qualifying for international tournaments with us. They're not so...
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There was more players form the Championship than Ligue 1 at the Euros in the summer. Its clearly a very strong league by European (and international ) standards. Its nonsense to say other wise. It has some of the biggest wageroles in World Football too 
"Sometimes, sh*t happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who ya gonna call?"
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Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

If it was that good a league, people in every capacity from players to CEO's  wouldn't be desperate to get out of it, and our players in it would be qualifying for international tournaments with us. They're not so...
You keep saying that because Championship clubs want to get out of it, then that "proves" that it is a bad league.

No it doesn't.

Rather it reflects what a good - and wealthy - league the PL is.

Or are you claiming eg that La Liga or Serie A must be crap leagues, because Barca, Real Madrid and Juve are desperate to get out of them?

Your argument is like saying that just because we'd all love to live in a huge villa in the South of France, it must mean that we're all living in caves. LOL
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

You keep saying that because Championship clubs want to get out of it, then that "proves" that it is a bad league.

No it doesn't.

Rather it reflects what a good - and wealthy - league the PL is.

Or are you claiming eg that La Liga or Serie A must be crap leagues, because Barca, Real Madrid and Juve are desperate to get out of them?

They're not looking to get out of it at all. They just to play the ESL as well, a fake league that will never see a ball kicked in anger. 

When the three teams who get relegated from this years EPL, are crying after 38 games or missing out on promotion, I don't think it'll be tears of joy, at going back to such a "strong" league next year. More along the lines of shock, sadness, anger, budgets cut, players sold, jobs lost, that sort of thing. 

I posted up a random list of teams who have been promoted from the Championship in recent years. Every single one was sent back to the Championship because they can't cope with the step up to the EPL, let alone international level and getting to major tournaments. And if we want to qualify for tournaments, most of the players need to be playing at a higher level than they are, to get there. Especially when there's just 13 qualifying slots available in the whole continent. 

We're not accepting not qualifying for tournaments, we are accepting that the players we have are not capable atm, and acknowledging that when judging the team and Kenny himself.
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Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

I posted up a random list of teams who have been promoted from the Championship in recent years. Every single one was sent back to the Championship because they can't cope with the step up to the EPL, let alone international level and getting to major tournaments.

Yet another false equivalence.

I am not saying the Championship is as good as the PL - or even close.

Then again, the likes of Luxembourg or Azerbaijan are not full of PL/PL-standard players, or anything like it.

Rather their squads are filled out mostly with players of the next standard down, if not lower. And as I've demonstrated, the Championship compares very favourably with other next level leagues like Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, Scotland etc, or the 2nd tiers of Germany, Italy, Spain or France.

Even if you look at Serbia, for all that they have some pretty speical players in their ranks, fact is, their current star man is Mitrovic - 43 goals in 66 caps. Do I need remind you where he plays?

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

And if we want to qualify for tournaments, most of the players need to be playing at a higher level than they are, to get there. Especially when there's just 13 qualifying slots available in the whole continent. 
 
If you're going to hope to qualify, you have to be competitive with the likes of Portugal etc, and yes, for that you need PL-quality players.

But before you can even think of that, you need first to be able to despatch the likes of Azer and Lux (or Gerogia, Finland, Slovakia or Bulgaria before that).

And with the players he has available to him - Championship-quality, basically - many people think SK should be doing a lot better in this current campaign than 2 points from 5 games, 3 of which were at home.

Or maybe you think differently?
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is this a thread about Stephen Kenny or whether or not a league is a “good” league?
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Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

is this a thread about Stephen Kenny or whether or not a league is a “good” league?

Ah yeah, but its kinda funny watching planning digging a bigger and bigger hole with the biggest stupid shovel I've come across in some time anywhere. And doubling down on blunt ignorance as a side dish to it all.
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Originally posted by Scissors Kick Scissors Kick wrote:

Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

is this a thread about Stephen Kenny or whether or not a league is a “good” league?

Ah yeah, but its kinda funny watching planning digging a bigger and bigger hole with the biggest stupid shovel I've come across in some time anywhere. And doubling down on blunt ignorance as a side dish to it all.


The argument ultimately goes back to the standard of player available to Kenny, and how a certain cohort like to portray the Championship as some sort of pub league - pretending that any random 1st division/Premier League from any random European country is better just because it is the top tier league in that country.

Which has been proven in the last few pages to be an embarrassingly stupid position, one which requires you to ignore every single shred of evidence to the contrary, or just have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of club football in Europe.

So when we fail to beat whichever X/Y/Z European no hoper/minnow - well we only have largely Championship players, and their star player plays for Moldovan champions! Thats a first tier, so it must be better than Championship.


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