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Stickittotheman
Liam Brady
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 9:45pm |
planning wrote:
AonSceal19 wrote:
I’m probably going to repeat the same talking points in this thread already but I’ll go ahead anyway.
Before a ball was kicked in this group I would have said Ireland should be finishing 3rd. I wasn’t one of these people who thought Luxembourg was a minnow like Gibraltar or Malta but I thought we should be getting at least 4pts against them and Azerbaijan. I think the away performances against Serbia and Portugal were very encouraging despite the results. On way paper our squad is considerably weaker than both of them. However against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg our performances were quite disappointing. Realistically i think a lot of people we’re hoping that we would beat these type of sides while playing a more attractive style of play. O’Neill and McCarthy got narrow wins over Georgia at home with dire football. Luxembourg and Azerbaijan would be of a similar level and the football and results haven’t been that great. We really struggle to create chances against these so called weaker nations no matter if it’s hoofball or a more possession based game. Kenny has blooded a lot of younger players and I doubt this would have happened under a different manager. How many players have only got noticed in their late 20s? I do think Kenny needs to beat Azerbaijan and Luxembourg to keep his job. He does need to show us something outside of morale boosting losses or draws against Portugal and Serbia. A lot of Kenny critics won’t give any praise for his good performances but a lot of Kenny supporters have moved to goal posts in terms of results. Most people were likely expecting home wins against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg. You can’t expect the man to get a new contract without a win in the group. |
We've won 10 games in 5 years. Our last home competitive win was 2+ years ago. On what basis were people "expecting home wins against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg"? I said before the Azerbaijan game that we should not expect to win it, and we didn't. I don't expect to win in Baku or Luxembourg either, and it's not the end of the world if we don't. You cannot expect any team to win a game with the record we have, and the players we have. Maybe if we had a hoofball head, we would have beaten them 1-0 with a bunch of 30 year olds out there. Watching paint dry would be better. That's not progress, it's a band aid job. And as for finishing third in the group, that achieves absolutely nothing. We've done that before, it's nothing new and it's not progress.
10 players have been brought through in the past 18 months, and are being developed now for 24 and 26. If the price of success then is 1 point at home to Azerbaijan and Luxembourg now, it will be worth the hassle. |
By the time they are developed for 24 and 26 we will be so far down the rankings we will be in a precarious position particularly if some of these guys never realise the potential.
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Walters coming back from an offside position but Shane Long was definitely onside- Shane Lonnggggggg.... has done it!!!!
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Trap junior
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 11:50pm |
I'm all for Stephen Kenny's ideas but the man must get a certain amount of results. It's going into David Koresh cult territory to keep defending his appalling record.
I hope it works out for him but he must gets 6 points out of these 3 games to stay in the job.
People trying to say now we shouldn't expect to beat Azerbaijan and Luxembourg. That's either serious cultish behaviour or Kenny has lowered the bar so low that a win against mighty Luxembourg is akin to winning the lottery.
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FrankosHereNow
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 2:40am |
Mr Brick wrote:
planning wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
An unbiased guide to success/failure is FIFA rankings . . . and it's a fallacy that no other manager would have introduced young players. Restructure or not - we should beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan. The bar has been lowered to such a ridiculous level - apparently we should reward the worst manager in Irish football history with more campaigns, some say until 2026.
But you declare no wins against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg would be OK, not a problem, carry on Stephen. I think not. |
I declared it wouldn't be the end of the world if we don't. If we beat either or them, or both, it doesn't mean we're suddenly world beaters. Personally I can't see us winning both, and would expect something similiar to the scorelines at home.
Fifa rankings only account for scorelines. They don't recognise tactics, or styles of play, or possession stats, or player availability, or squad depth, or virus restrictions. They often paint a false picture of the world game. Brazil are usually top, yet haven't won the WC in 20 years. England are now in the top 5. Their last major trophy was 55 years ago. Messi is often called the greatest player ever, but he's never won the World Cup.
The bar has been reduced, because it has to be reduced. We have had fantastic players over the past 50 years all over the pitch, now we have players struggling to get game time for their clubs. None of the potential replacements for Kenny suggested would bring through the number of players he has. They would stick to hoofball with the tried and trusted, and when it failed, blame the lack of players for it, then get sacked and repeat the same old cycle again. |
So, according to you, FIFA rankings should reflect "tactics, styles of play, possession stats, player availability, squad depth and virus restrictions". Otherwise it's unfair to Stephen Kenny. That's very funny. |
No, that’s not what he said at all. Read it again and pay attention this time.
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EdisonCavani
Kevin Kilbane
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 9:32am |
Trap junior wrote:
I'm all for Stephen Kenny's ideas but the man must get a certain amount of results. It's going into David Koresh cult territory to keep defending his appalling record.
I hope it works out for him but he must gets 6 points out of these 3 games to stay in the job.
People trying to say now we shouldn't expect to beat Azerbaijan and Luxembourg. That's either serious cultish behaviour or Kenny has lowered the bar so low that a win against mighty Luxembourg is akin to winning the lottery.
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Agree with this.
Even the most ardent Kenny supporter would have to acknowledge that most of our so called better play compared to previous Irish teams is in areas of the pitch that pose little danger to the opposition. It is almost certain we will have more of the ball than Luxembourg and Azerbaijan in our upcoming matches. The big but is whether we will have enough of that possession high up the pitch in order to hurt the opposition and score goals. We don’t keep many clean sheets and we rarely score more than one goal. If we score two goals in each of those matches it’s odds on we win both. However scoring two goals with our forward players and the way we play requires midfielders to push much higher up the pitch and run ahead of Idah sometimes. Are we going to to do that? I have my doubts. I think it is inherently conservative game we are playing.
A question for all the Kenny loyalists. If he was implementing a new philosophy surely after 20 odd games we would all be sure what formation we will be playing in Baku. I could not be sure on it. Is anyone certain? We should be.
I would love for him to succeed but I think there are many flaws in what he is trying to do so far.
Edited by EdisonCavani - 19 Sep 2021 at 9:34am
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FrankosHereNow
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 10:07am |
Mr Brick wrote:
FrankosHereNow wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
planning wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
An unbiased guide to success/failure is FIFA rankings . . . and it's a fallacy that no other manager would have introduced young players. Restructure or not - we should beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan. The bar has been lowered to such a ridiculous level - apparently we should reward the worst manager in Irish football history with more campaigns, some say until 2026.
But you declare no wins against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg would be OK, not a problem, carry on Stephen. I think not. |
I declared it wouldn't be the end of the world if we don't. If we beat either or them, or both, it doesn't mean we're suddenly world beaters. Personally I can't see us winning both, and would expect something similiar to the scorelines at home.
Fifa rankings only account for scorelines. They don't recognise tactics, or styles of play, or possession stats, or player availability, or squad depth, or virus restrictions. They often paint a false picture of the world game. Brazil are usually top, yet haven't won the WC in 20 years. England are now in the top 5. Their last major trophy was 55 years ago. Messi is often called the greatest player ever, but he's never won the World Cup.
The bar has been reduced, because it has to be reduced. We have had fantastic players over the past 50 years all over the pitch, now we have players struggling to get game time for their clubs. None of the potential replacements for Kenny suggested would bring through the number of players he has. They would stick to hoofball with the tried and trusted, and when it failed, blame the lack of players for it, then get sacked and repeat the same old cycle again. |
So, according to you, FIFA rankings should reflect "tactics, styles of play, possession stats, player availability, squad depth and virus restrictions". Otherwise it's unfair to Stephen Kenny. That's very funny. | No, that’s not what he said at all. Read it again and pay attention this time. |
I've read it again. He suggests FIFA would need to recognise what he lists to do justice to rankings. Otherwise, he contends, they can draw a false picture. Go back to bed Franko. |
Can you read?
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 10:09am |
Mr Brick wrote:
FrankosHereNow wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
planning wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
An unbiased guide to success/failure is FIFA rankings . . . and it's a fallacy that no other manager would have introduced young players. Restructure or not - we should beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan. The bar has been lowered to such a ridiculous level - apparently we should reward the worst manager in Irish football history with more campaigns, some say until 2026.
But you declare no wins against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg would be OK, not a problem, carry on Stephen. I think not. |
I declared it wouldn't be the end of the world if we don't. If we beat either or them, or both, it doesn't mean we're suddenly world beaters. Personally I can't see us winning both, and would expect something similiar to the scorelines at home.
Fifa rankings only account for scorelines. They don't recognise tactics, or styles of play, or possession stats, or player availability, or squad depth, or virus restrictions. They often paint a false picture of the world game. Brazil are usually top, yet haven't won the WC in 20 years. England are now in the top 5. Their last major trophy was 55 years ago. Messi is often called the greatest player ever, but he's never won the World Cup.
The bar has been reduced, because it has to be reduced. We have had fantastic players over the past 50 years all over the pitch, now we have players struggling to get game time for their clubs. None of the potential replacements for Kenny suggested would bring through the number of players he has. They would stick to hoofball with the tried and trusted, and when it failed, blame the lack of players for it, then get sacked and repeat the same old cycle again. |
So, according to you, FIFA rankings should reflect "tactics, styles of play, possession stats, player availability, squad depth and virus restrictions". Otherwise it's unfair to Stephen Kenny. That's very funny. | No, that’s not what he said at all. Read it again and pay attention this time. |
I've read it again. He suggests FIFA would need to recognise what he lists to do justice to rankings. Otherwise, he contends, they can draw a false picture. Go back to bed Franko. |
Yeah fifa rankings do draw dale pictures just like gdp does. It’s the limitations of such metrics. Doesn’t mean they are meaningless but it also means they cannot be taken as the opening and closing argument in a debate either.
Seems like there is a culture war going on here for Irish football and like many culture wars nuance is lost. Classic case in point above.
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Stickittotheman
Liam Brady
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 10:56am |
niallmc wrote:
Interesting article on rte.ie
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From the article it is clear and I fully agree with it:
In a profile piece for The Coaches’ Voice, Hughton said: "I’m the type of coach who very much wants to work off a solid base. I wouldn’t call it a defensive strategy - it’s setting up a team to be compact while also having strong attacking aspects from the way the team is set up. Ultimately, it's about winning football matches and how you do that comes down to the level of club that you are managing and the players that you have."
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Walters coming back from an offside position but Shane Long was definitely onside- Shane Lonnggggggg.... has done it!!!!
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MayoMark
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 11:26am |
I always wanted Kenny to have time to build to the euro campaign. I really didn't care about results this time round. I expected them to be very mediocre but they have probably been worse than that. If the euros don't go well, fair enough. Move on. But I think he needs to get that campaign. Just my view.
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Stickittotheman
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 12:40pm |
Gavin Bazunu- Playing regularly in league one with Portsmouth. On the evidence of his Ireland performances so far he has immense potential.
Data O'Shea- A regular at West Brom he is a solid defender who should be a stalwart for years to come. Injured at the minute but Clark is playing regularly at Newcastle and could come in.
John Egan- Sheffield United's captain and emerging as a real leader in this Irish side too. Solid and has a goal in him.
Shane Duffy- After a woeful spell at Celtic re-invigorated at Brighton. A colossus in the air and a serious goal threat.
Seamus Coleman- In ahead of Doherty due to the latter's lack of playing time. Still got real quality and a great engine.
Enda Stevens- Never really done it in an Ireland shirt but always performed well at club level. Ryan Manning playing week in week out at Swansea knocking on the door. Matt Doherty a possibility here too despite lack of game time.
Josh Cullen- A regular at Anderlecht in the Belgian league. Played his way into this Irish team. A little limited but good engine and reads the game well.
Conor Hourihane- Dropped to the Championship and playing with Seffield United. Badly needed minutes and by all accounts playing quite well.
Alan Browne- A regular for Preston he has two goals during Kennys reign and has offered a goal threat for us.
Michael Obafemi/Aaron Connolly/Adam Idah/ Carllum Robinson/James Collins- We are badly struggling up front to find a combo that works so 2 of the above will probably make the place their own. Idah has potential but getting no club football which is an issue. Connolly the same. Obafemi dropped a division so hopefully he can push on with Swansea. Collins gutsy but limited and Robinson in and out at WBA.
I don't buy the narrative going forward that we don't have regulars at their clubs. We do. The goalposts will probably be changed to them not being the best players at their clubs but Kenny has enough there now to take 6 points from the 2 away games left. Anything less he should be gone.
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Walters coming back from an offside position but Shane Long was definitely onside- Shane Lonnggggggg.... has done it!!!!
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Jimmy Raggatip
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 12:44pm |
jog my memory a little
were there people saying we *should* be beating Gibraltar more than 1-0?
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irishmufc
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 12:47pm |
If we don't beat either Luxembourg or Azerbaijan in these next few games, then Kenny would be very very lucky to be kept on for the Nations League. Similar poor results in the Nations League and he would certainly be sacked.
I just can't see the players staying on board with the manager if we fail to beat Luxembourg or Azerbaijan in any of the 4 games.
Anyone who thinks results should be irrelevant for this campaign is not living in the real world. Whatever about the talk about building for the Euros, Kenny knows it himself he needs results in the meantime.
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 12:47pm |
Stickittotheman wrote:
Gavin Bazunu- Playing regularly in league one with Portsmouth. On the evidence of his Ireland performances so far he has immense potential.
Data O'Shea- A regular at West Brom he is a solid defender who should be a stalwart for years to come. Injured at the minute but Clark is playing regularly at Newcastle and could come in.
John Egan- Sheffield United's captain and emerging as a real leader in this Irish side too. Solid and has a goal in him.
Shane Duffy- After a woeful spell at Celtic re-invigorated at Brighton. A colossus in the air and a serious goal threat.
Seamus Coleman- In ahead of Doherty due to the latter's lack of playing time. Still got real quality and a great engine.
Enda Stevens- Never really done it in an Ireland shirt but always performed well at club level. Ryan Manning playing week in week out at Swansea knocking on the door. Matt Doherty a possibility here too despite lack of game time.
Josh Cullen- A regular at Anderlecht in the Belgian league. Played his way into this Irish team. A little limited but good engine and reads the game well.
Conor Hourihane- Dropped to the Championship and playing with Seffield United. Badly needed minutes and by all accounts playing quite well.
Alan Browne- A regular for Preston he has two goals during Kennys reign and has offered a goal threat for us.
Michael Obafemi/Aaron Connolly/Adam Idah/ Carllum Robinson/James Collins- We are badly struggling up front to find a combo that works so 2 of the above will probably make the place their own. Idah has potential but getting no club football which is an issue. Connolly the same. Obafemi dropped a division so hopefully he can push on with Swansea. Collins gutsy but limited and Robinson in and out at WBA.
I don't buy the narrative going forward that we don't have regulars at their clubs. We do. The goalposts will probably be changed to them not being the best players at their clubs but Kenny has enough there now to take 6 points from the 2 away games left. Anything less he should be gone.
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We have decent players in most positions only the one that matters. Someone to score a goal. If ya cant score goals your fcuked. This is our problem area and has been for years but esp now.
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Baldrick
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 3:21pm |
Mr Brick wrote:
Baldrick wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
FrankosHereNow wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
planning wrote:
Mr Brick wrote:
An unbiased guide to success/failure is FIFA rankings . . . and it's a fallacy that no other manager would have introduced young players. Restructure or not - we should beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan. The bar has been lowered to such a ridiculous level - apparently we should reward the worst manager in Irish football history with more campaigns, some say until 2026.
But you declare no wins against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg would be OK, not a problem, carry on Stephen. I think not. |
I declared it wouldn't be the end of the world if we don't. If we beat either or them, or both, it doesn't mean we're suddenly world beaters. Personally I can't see us winning both, and would expect something similiar to the scorelines at home.
Fifa rankings only account for scorelines. They don't recognise tactics, or styles of play, or possession stats, or player availability, or squad depth, or virus restrictions. They often paint a false picture of the world game. Brazil are usually top, yet haven't won the WC in 20 years. England are now in the top 5. Their last major trophy was 55 years ago. Messi is often called the greatest player ever, but he's never won the World Cup.
The bar has been reduced, because it has to be reduced. We have had fantastic players over the past 50 years all over the pitch, now we have players struggling to get game time for their clubs. None of the potential replacements for Kenny suggested would bring through the number of players he has. They would stick to hoofball with the tried and trusted, and when it failed, blame the lack of players for it, then get sacked and repeat the same old cycle again. |
So, according to you, FIFA rankings should reflect "tactics, styles of play, possession stats, player availability, squad depth and virus restrictions". Otherwise it's unfair to Stephen Kenny. That's very funny. | No, that’s not what he said at all. Read it again and pay attention this time. |
I've read it again. He suggests FIFA would need to recognise what he lists to do justice to rankings. Otherwise, he contends, they can draw a false picture. Go back to bed Franko. |
Yeah fifa rankings do draw dale pictures just like gdp does. It’s the limitations of such metrics. Doesn’t mean they are meaningless but it also means they cannot be taken as the opening and closing argument in a debate either.
Seems like there is a culture war going on here for Irish football and like many culture wars nuance is lost. Classic case in point above. |
Results are the metrics of football. Dale(?) pictures and culture wars? It's a straight debate on the performance of a football manager. As for nuance - it'll be conspicuous by its absence in Jonathan Hill's communication with Kenny if results in Luxembourg and Azerbaijan are bad. |
Of course they are and if results dont improve ultimately Kenny wont have his contract renewed. It's the timing though that is up for debate. Some would never have given him the job and wanted him gone after the nations league. Others want him gone now and others will get rid of him after this campaign. Many others are prepared to give time and assess at the end of the campaign or at the end of his contract. That's probably what the fai will do too so everything else is hot air.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 4:25pm |
If the FAI sacked Kenny at the end of this campaign before his contract is up next summer, is there automatically a pay off triggered?
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Baldrick
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 4:52pm |
Someone would have to have access to the contract or someone with access would have to leak it. That wouldnt happen would it 😀😀😀
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irishmufc
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 5:00pm |
Baldrick wrote:
Someone would have to have access to the contract or someone with access would have to leak it. That wouldnt happen would it 😀😀😀 |
I'm just asking in general terms what the situation would be.
I assume there would be a pay off if he's sacked before the contract expires.
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Sham157
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 5:51pm |
irishmufc wrote:
Baldrick wrote:
Someone would have to have access to the contract or someone with access would have to leak it. That wouldnt happen would it 😀😀😀 |
I'm just asking in general terms what the situation would be.
I assume there would be a pay off if he's sacked before the contract expires. |
Of course there would be a pay off. They would either have to pay him until the end of his contract, pay him what he would have been paid in a lump or come to a mutual arrangement.
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Bandwagon
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 6:17pm |
Hes on €540k a year which works out as €45k a month. After these qualifiers there will be 8 months remaining on his contract so he'd still be owed roughly €360k either way.
Would be silly to sack him rather than sit it out unless they have an immediate replacement lined up to take control of the 6 games in March and June where theres nothing at stake anyway.
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