Saipan - Who was right?

Baldrick wrote: Ferguson only f**ked him out when he no longer performed on the pitch.  You don’t get all principled when it comes to your best player.  Allowances are given for someone who is fundamental to success. Ferguson let Keane do his bidding many times before but drew the line when he did it and was finished as a player.  His time at Celtic showed that.  The same with Utd and Ronaldo.  Exceptions are made for generational talents.  Neville has confirmed that the mutv interview was no different that what Keane has said many times before.  The difference was Keane’s ability had reduced massively.  Keane at his peak would have been fined and kept.  In an ideal world Keane wouldn’t have did what he did and he has little excuse to say what he said about the players.  But Mick was too nice a guy esp with the FAI.  It’s a bad state of affairs when it’s a player who has to ask for things to be done properly and the manager just accepts the mediocrity.

Baldrick wrote: Fitz wrote: Cabra Hoop wrote: Fitz wrote: horsebox wrote: Yes, it's the right thing to do. No player is bigger than the team. Absolutely! If he didn’t he’d be clearly demonstrating that he was weak, indecisive and unfit to lead.  doesn't work like that, not in football, not in life. If you are needed badly enough, eyes will become blind and allowances will be made To some extent, yes, and Keane had gotten away with more than most for that exact reason. But when you’re undermining your boss - even in circumstances where you may have a valid point - you’re treading on very thin ice. No boss can let themselves be clearly undermined. If Mick was going to accept that, then, he may as well have been the one who packed his bags. I often feel that Keane gets unwarranted support and defence from people because we needed him so badly, but that’s a kind of ‘rise-tinted-specs’ approach. If we had produced 50 world-class footballers instead of probably less than 5, then, Keane’s actions would’ve been viewed with a lot more accuracy and a lot more contempt.  The point is if we had loads of him he probably wouldn’t have acted up and if he did we would rightly get rid of him as we could afford to.  You got to Manage the situation and not let pride or principles get in the way of the overall good of the squad.  Cantona didn’t get f**ked out when he jumped into The crowd. Why because Ferguson knew he needed him.  He wouldn’t have been the same with Luke Chadwick.

Edited by Fitz - 22 Nov 2022 at 9:48pm

Fitz wrote: Baldrick wrote: Ferguson only f**ked him out when he no longer performed on the pitch.  You don’t get all principled when it comes to your best player.  Allowances are given for someone who is fundamental to success. Ferguson let Keane do his bidding many times before but drew the line when he did it and was finished as a player.  His time at Celtic showed that.  The same with Utd and Ronaldo.  Exceptions are made for generational talents.  Neville has confirmed that the mutv interview was no different that what Keane has said many times before.  The difference was Keane’s ability had reduced massively.  Keane at his peak would have been fined and kept.  In an ideal world Keane wouldn’t have did what he did and he has little excuse to say what he said about the players.  But Mick was too nice a guy esp with the FAI.  It’s a bad state of affairs when it’s a player who has to ask for things to be done properly and the manager just accepts the mediocrity.   Exceptions are made up to a point. As they were - quite clearly - for Keane. Yes, Keane was finished at United but he wouldn’t have been f**ked out like that if he hadn’t disrespected the manager on television. It’s not *just* that he was surplus to requirements, come on like, you’re moving the goalposts here big time.

Trap junior wrote: Baldrick wrote: Trap junior wrote: Baldrick wrote: Ferguson only f**ked him out when he no longer performed on the pitch.  You don’t get all principled when it comes to your best player.  Allowances are given for someone who is fundamental to success. Ferguson let Keane do his bidding many times before but drew the line when he did it and was finished as a player.  His time at Celtic showed that.  The same with Utd and Ronaldo.  Exceptions are made for generational talents.  Neville has confirmed that the mutv interview was no different that what Keane has said many times before.  The difference was Keane’s ability had reduced massively.  Keane at his peak would have been fined and kept.  In an ideal world Keane wouldn’t have did what he did and he has little excuse to say what he said about the players.  But Mick was too nice a guy esp with the FAI.  It’s a bad state of affairs when it’s a player who has to ask for things to be done properly and the manager just accepts the mediocrity.   Wrong.  He would have f**ked him out at any stage of his career.  He got rid of Jaap Staam and Van Nistelrooy and Beckham when they acted above their station and they were in the prime of their careers and performing well at the time. Ferguson a got rid of staam because of injury and admitted he got it wrong.   Ruud was moved on as he was holding Ronaldo back and Ferguson spotted who was the world class talent and who was on the wain.   Beckham was moved on because football was not his only priority.  Ferguson spotted this.  That could never be leveled at Keane.   Keane laid into the utd publicly a few times and he was not Moved on.  He was arrested and he was not moved on.  Why because Ferguson needed him.  Same with Cantona.  Ferguson put the foot down when he knew he could afford to.  He did not cut off his nose despite his face.  Mick Did.  Staam was axed because he questioned Ferguson in his book.  That's a fact. Van Nistelrooy was axed because he fell out with Fergie as is typical of Dutchmen. Beckham was axed because he fell out with Fergie over Posh Spice.  Fergie kicked a boot at his face and he was gone shortly after. Keane had never questioned Ferguson's authority or undermined him until the MUTV interview.  He was not kicked out because of an arrest because he had not acted against his own team mates or manager.  I don;t know why you keep bringing up irrelvant examples.  One has to do with questioning authority such as the Saipan, Ronaldo  or Stam incident and the other is a misdemeanour nothing to do with questioning authority of ther manager or acting against his own team mates. Imagine if Ronaldo was allowed continue at United.  Ten Hag would be a laughing stock and the whole thing would be a disaster and Ten Hag would be the one to leave.  There was no way back for Ronaldo after that interview the exact same as there was no way back for Keane after his Humphries interview. There was no managing that situation to a successful outcome imo.  Only a Keane apology would have done and Keane was never going to apologise especially the mood he was in for that trip.

No offence Bakdrick, but holy f**k you’re as blinkered as Keane is. You’ve made a few points that are accurate and fair, but most of that last comment is just pro-Keane drivel tbh  

Baldrick wrote: Fitz wrote: No offence Bakdrick, but holy f**k you’re as blinkered as Keane is. You’ve made a few points that are accurate and fair, but most of that last comment is just pro-Keane drivel tbh   You and Trap can only see Keane has been 100% wrong and that Mick did no wrong. And yet you call me blinkered.

Baldrick wrote: Trap junior wrote: Baldrick wrote: Fitz wrote: Cabra Hoop wrote: Fitz wrote: horsebox wrote: Yes, it's the right thing to do. No player is bigger than the team. Absolutely! If he didn’t he’d be clearly demonstrating that he was weak, indecisive and unfit to lead.  doesn't work like that, not in football, not in life. If you are needed badly enough, eyes will become blind and allowances will be made To some extent, yes, and Keane had gotten away with more than most for that exact reason. But when you’re undermining your boss - even in circumstances where you may have a valid point - you’re treading on very thin ice. No boss can let themselves be clearly undermined. If Mick was going to accept that, then, he may as well have been the one who packed his bags. I often feel that Keane gets unwarranted support and defence from people because we needed him so badly, but that’s a kind of ‘rise-tinted-specs’ approach. If we had produced 50 world-class footballers instead of probably less than 5, then, Keane’s actions would’ve been viewed with a lot more accuracy and a lot more contempt.  The point is if we had loads of him he probably wouldn’t have acted up and if he did we would rightly get rid of him as we could afford to.  You got to Manage the situation and not let pride or principles get in the way of the overall good of the squad.  Cantona didn’t get f**ked out when he jumped into The crowd. Why because Ferguson knew he needed him.  He wouldn’t have been the same with Luke Chadwick.  Cantona did not question his manager or sl*g off his team mates.  Different scenario. Plus the ****  Matthew Simmons deserved it. When did Keane question Ferguson in the MuFc interview.  It was the players and something he had done before.  As I said Neville has confirmed he did it plenty of Times before.

Get your best players on the pitch by hook or by crook and don’t back you or your player into a corner as it does nobody any good and that’s what happened.  Keane was in foul form and was impossible to deal with I am sure during that period.  But great managers firstly are prepared and make sure that no stone is left unturned and they have the fear of God driven into their association to no mess up. Mick did not demand that from the FAI and Keane new that.  He knew it was sloppy and decent lads supporting each other and high standards were not demanded. This drove him mad. Instead of seeing this as a positive Mick saw it as a negative and as a result managed it incorrectly.  He should have come out and said Roy was correct about the setup and tore into the FAI and supported his player.  He would have had Keane onside and all the players and the interview with Kimmage and Humphries would never have happened like they did.  But listen Keane was in destructive mood and needed to be managed.  Just like Jordan dud at the Bulls.   Keane is far more limited as a manager than Mick is.  Mick has good people skills.  Hornet getting Dervan as his ghost writer was a stupid mistake.  I can’t image Southgate getting a journalist who had slated Harry Kane previously as his ghost writer for this World Cup.