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The 8th - Repealed!

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Poll Question: Will you vote to Repeal the 8th amendment?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
74 [64.35%]
41 [35.65%]
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randyrandolph View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randyrandolph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Just reading some of the online comments in social media from the Pro-Lifers would make you sick...
 
A baby is a baby regardless of whether it's 2 weeks in the womb or 12 weeks.... there's a hidden agenda here by the government and they're up to something, this won't be just as per the referendum.
 
What kind of special case thinks like this?

I've mentioned he timeline here before. Most people won't actually know they are pregnant until they are 6-8 weeks along. The first four weeks of the pregnancy covers the gap between the last period and the conception of the child, which is hard to calculate. But by the time you'll know that you're pregnant and have it confirmed and have had a scan, you'll be able to see the heartbeat, and that can be within two weeks of actual conception.

When life brings is a hard moral question.

this is all true. no woman knows they are 2 weeks pregnant. that said, i don't buy into the argument that a baby at 10 weeks is any less of a baby than one at 12 weeks, or 40 weeks for that matter. abortion is ending a life. you can dress it up however you like but that is the truth. you are making a conscious decision to stop someones life. there is therefore a question about morality and who can make that decision. morality is not a question of following church doctrine. 

the extreme cases (rape, incest) often cloud the debate when in reality they make up for only a tiny percentage of abortions.  they should be debated as part of the wider debate but often these emotive issues distract from the core issue which is what is more important - a woman's choice or that of an unborn child. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 2:38pm
Classic Hendrix

Well I'm lying here pregnant
Inside an Irish hospital
Got a septic foetus inside my wall
Tonight's the night to abort and make me healthy
Come on Doctor, now, there's no time to stall
But now you're telling me

I think we better wait 'til you're dyin'
Yeah, yeah,
I think we better wait 'til you're dyin'
Girl what you talkin' about
I think we better wait you're dyin'

Got to make sure it's died

So until tomorrow goodnight

Oh what a drag

Oh Savita, how can we hang you out this way
On the phone you said you felt you might die today
Now you're lying there like some
Turned down serenaded fool
Hearing strange words stutter from the mixed-up mind of you
And I keep telling you that ah


I think we better wait til' you're dyin'
What are you talkin' about
I think we better wait til' you're dyin'
Ah, I can't wait that long
I think we better wait til you're dyin'

Got to make sure it's died
So until tomorrow goodnight

Oh the 8th Amendment must be insane
Makes us so unsure of ourselves
Compulsory malpractice it's so arcane
Do I see a silhouette of somebody pointing
Someone from repeal
Beep beep
Oh what a f**k up mommy just turned green
And I hear you say as you fade away

Why'd you have to wait til' I'm dyin'
Hey
Why'd have to wait til' I'm dyin'
What you say
Why'd you have to wait til' I'm dyin'

We must not have been right
So forever goodnight


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devrozex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by oldbilly oldbilly wrote:

I’d be of the opinion this should be a women’s issue, voted on by the women of this country , why should men get to vote on women’s health ??
 
Why did straight people get to vote on the marriage referendum? It's a societal issue and therefore should be voted on by society as a whole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldbilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 2:30pm
I’d be of the opinion this should be a women’s issue, voted on by the women of this country , why should men get to vote on women’s health ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigPodge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by BigPodge BigPodge wrote:

No voters invaded Arklow yesterday!

It was the usual aggressive carry on of handing leaflets to children with graphic pictures on them  (I've heard this happen a lot), yelling at people, stopping cars etc.

Though the best story of all is that a priest told 2 young girls that they needed to be shot!

You can't help but laugh at them ClownLOL
You see, all these stories that "definitely happen" are making the pro-abortion side even worse than the anti-abortion side. We have no evidence of any of this, just stories that get passed from word of mount to make one side look worse. The pro-abortion side is really shooting itself in the foot with all these stories doing the rounds on Twitter. Stick to the facts and they'll win. Engage in this nonsense and they'll lose.


Eh the incidents were witnessed by a family member Confused
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Just reading some of the online comments in social media from the Pro-Lifers would make you sick...
 
A baby is a baby regardless of whether it's 2 weeks in the womb or 12 weeks.... there's a hidden agenda here by the government and they're up to something, this won't be just as per the referendum.
 
What kind of special case thinks like this?

I've mentioned he timeline here before. Most people won't actually know they are pregnant until they are 6-8 weeks along. The first four weeks of the pregnancy covers the gap between the last period and the conception of the child, which is hard to calculate. But by the time you'll know that you're pregnant and have it confirmed and have had a scan, you'll be able to see the heartbeat, and that can be within two weeks of actual conception.

When life brings is a hard moral question.
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randyrandolph View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randyrandolph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Just reading some of the online comments in social media from the Pro-Lifers would make you sick...
 
A baby is a baby regardless of whether it's 2 weeks in the womb or 12 weeks.... there's a hidden agenda here by the government and they're up to something, this won't be just as per the referendum.
 
What kind of special case thinks like this?

why does this make you sick?
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Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:


Sorry the first two lines of the second paragraph.
"Right to personal Medical Decision
Right for Women to make personal decision over body
Previously Right to Travel was an Abortion issue. "
Messages in this 2018 campaign which remind voters of these entitlements. These same messages could've been used to challenge 27th Amendment where the proponents crimalised women who were pregnant in Ireland.

It didn't criminalise anybody. It was about the constitutional right to citizenship by virtue of being born on the island. People were still entitled to have their babies on the island, and people could have babies overseas and still claim citizenship.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:38pm
Just reading some of the online comments in social media from the Pro-Lifers would make you sick...
 
A baby is a baby regardless of whether it's 2 weeks in the womb or 12 weeks.... there's a hidden agenda here by the government and they're up to something, this won't be just as per the referendum.
 
What kind of special case thinks like this?
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sid waddell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

They're being outspent.

Their digital advertising presence is non-existent compared to the No campaign.
BTW, is there any evidence of being outspent? I keep hearing the Yes campaign complaining about it, but haven't seen anything solid.
More posters. 

Way more online ads. 

Investing in the services of Aggergate IQ etc.

Say what you see, as somebody once said. 

This is effectively the anti-choicers' last stand in the Western world. 

It has huge symbolic value for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UCDFAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:


No, it's some of the YES campaign 2018 that could be used for the defence of the defeated NO campaign of the 27th.

Right to personal Medical Decision
Right for Women to make personal decision over body
Previously Right to Travel was an Abortion issue.

The Single Equality Ground equalists for Gender don't seem to link 27th and 8th/36th because 27th was Ethnicity/Nationality and 8th/36th is Gender.

My politics links 27th and 8th/36th campaigns. I'd be into multi-Equality Ground politics.




Okay. Fair enough.

But what aspects of the cdampaign could have been used in both cases?

Sorry the first two lines of the second paragraph.
"Right to personal Medical Decision
Right for Women to make personal decision over body
Previously Right to Travel was an Abortion issue. "
Messages in this 2018 campaign which remind voters of these entitlements. These same messages could've been used to challenge 27th Amendment where the proponents crimalised women who were pregnant in Ireland.


Edited by UCDFAN - 09 May 2018 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

They're being outspent.

Their digital advertising presence is non-existent compared to the No campaign.
BTW, is there any evidence of being outspent? I keep hearing the Yes campaign complaining about it, but haven't seen anything solid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by BigPodge BigPodge wrote:

No voters invaded Arklow yesterday!

It was the usual aggressive carry on of handing leaflets to children with graphic pictures on them  (I've heard this happen a lot), yelling at people, stopping cars etc.

Though the best story of all is that a priest told 2 young girls that they needed to be shot!

You can't help but laugh at them ClownLOL
You see, all these stories that "definitely happen" are making the pro-abortion side even worse than the anti-abortion side. We have no evidence of any of this, just stories that get passed from word of mount to make one side look worse. The pro-abortion side is really shooting itself in the foot with all these stories doing the rounds on Twitter. Stick to the facts and they'll win. Engage in this nonsense and they'll lose.

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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:


No, it's some of the YES campaign 2018 that could be used for the defence of the defeated NO campaign of the 27th.

Right to personal Medical Decision
Right for Women to make personal decision over body
Previously Right to Travel was an Abortion issue.

The Single Equality Ground equalists for Gender don't seem to link 27th and 8th/36th because 27th was Ethnicity/Nationality and 8th/36th is Gender.

My politics links 27th and 8th/36th campaigns. I'd be into multi-Equality Ground politics.




Okay. Fair enough.

But what aspects of the campaign could have been used in both cases?
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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UCDFAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:


For me, the 27th Amendment and those it excluded can be linked with the campaign politics of this 8th/36th Amendment.

I would like to say I understand how you draw the link between the politics of this amendment, and the Citizenship referendum in 2004. Don't forget, we had a very limited referendum on the issue in 2002, which had a narrow rejection.

Are you saying that the politics of the pro-amendment side in 2004 are similar to the politics of the anti repeal side in 2018? 

No, it's some of the YES campaign 2018 that could be used for the defence of the defeated NO campaign of the 27th.

Right to personal Medical Decision
Right for Women to make personal decision over body
Previously Right to Travel was an Abortion issue.

The Single Equality Ground equalists for Gender don't seem to link 27th and 8th/36th because 27th was Ethnicity/Nationality and 8th/36th is Gender.

My politics links 27th and 8th/36th campaigns. I'd be into multi-Equality Ground politics.



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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:


For me, the 27th Amendment and those it excluded can be linked with the campaign politics of this 8th/36th Amendment.

I would like to say I understand how you draw the link between the politics of this amendment, and the Citizenship referendum in 2004. Don't forget, we had a very limited referendum on the issue in 2002, which had a narrow rejection.

Are you saying that the politics of the pro-amendment side in 2004 are similar to the politics of the anti repeal side in 2018? 
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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UCDFAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:

Single Equality Ground politics is not about inclusion. It's about the single narrow message for the Equality Ground.
Some of the messages of YES campaign wants to win on the principled, narrow terms of ownership/personal decision-making.  Let other groups present more complex, layered inclusion arguments.

For me the majority of YES messages matches exactly the reasons to repeal 27th Amendment (2006). Right of travel, Personal decisions on Medical diagnosis, Gender-specific, Family-specific and perhaps Parental-specific.  The only exclusion is Ethnicity between 8th/36th and 27th. (Both fear of England Medical Procedures and fear of Nigerian Mothers).

Twinning 8th/36th and 27th increases inclusion and after that the chance of political success. Single Equality Ground equalists want to win their narrow arguments on their own, without any help from other groups in society, without expanding their political arguments to be more representative.

Members of society are aware of the flaws and recognise that Single Equality Ground politics doesn't represent the person.  Layer Single Equality Grounds together (nine atm, there should be more) and it's more representative. More complex too, that's a good thing.

Am I to assume your beef is with the 2004 Citizenship referendum, and its outcome?

For me, the 27th Amendment and those it excluded can be linked with the campaign politics of this 8th/36th Amendment.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 11:51am
Originally posted by UCDFAN UCDFAN wrote:

Single Equality Ground politics is not about inclusion. It's about the single narrow message for the Equality Ground.
Some of the messages of YES campaign wants to win on the principled, narrow terms of ownership/personal decision-making.  Let other groups present more complex, layered inclusion arguments.

For me the majority of YES messages matches exactly the reasons to repeal 27th Amendment (2006). Right of travel, Personal decisions on Medical diagnosis, Gender-specific, Family-specific and perhaps Parental-specific.  The only exclusion is Ethnicity between 8th/36th and 27th. (Both fear of England Medical Procedures and fear of Nigerian Mothers).

Twinning 8th/36th and 27th increases inclusion and after that the chance of political success. Single Equality Ground equalists want to win their narrow arguments on their own, without any help from other groups in society, without expanding their political arguments to be more representative.

Members of society are aware of the flaws and recognise that Single Equality Ground politics doesn't represent the person.  Layer Single Equality Grounds together (nine atm, there should be more) and it's more representative. More complex too, that's a good thing.

Am I to assume your beef is with the 2004 Citizenship referendum, and its outcome?
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