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VAR sytem |
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Het-field 
Roy Keane 
By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10716 |
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 Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 2:01pm |
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VAR whereby the referee can satisfy themselves of the decision they made makes absolute sense. The current guise, which is not like that at the WC 18 is not up to the job.
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planning
Ray Houghton
Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 2:15pm |
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So you prove my point again. You haven't got the message. You have not proposed a viable alternative, beyond scrap it. Well sorry, no can do. You cannot go back to a less accurate form of refereeing. It's absolutely impossible. VAR stepped in 3 times in the EPL at the weekend to correct 3 major errors that under your alternative, would stand and ruin the games. As my sig states, it's cleaning the crap out of football, once and for all. Wrong decisions ruin football, correct decisions are what we need, and we get a lot more of them now than we ever did before.
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VAR: Cutting the crap out of football.
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Fruice
Liam Brady
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 Location: Cork Status: Offline Points: 1261 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 3:01pm |
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VAR as it stands does impact on atmosphere for sure but the game is fairer as a result of VAR.
Still elements open to personal interpretation but more decisions have been got right because of it and that is a good thing. |
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 3:07pm |
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Just more white noise. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Henry which tbf is a credit to you, as I know you really really wanted to.
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Croftman
Liam Brady
Joined: 18 Aug 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2554 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 4:16pm |
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Has to stay but has to be modified and they have to do something about letting people in the stadiums know what's actually happening
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Some people just deserve a slap
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane
ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 4:17pm |
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Yeah, if, in a hypothetical universe, you gave anyone a choice involving only two entirely artificial and unrealistic options, one of which was a gross exaggeration of something that happens rarely enough, they'd definitely pick the alternative.... I'm not sure that furthers the argument in favour of VAR though.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 6:06pm |
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As I noted earlier: "Meanwhile, I was speaking to a FL referee a few weeks back. He was
saying that his PL colleagues absolutely HATE it, since it's wrecked
their confidence in their own decision-making. I think he meant that the
threat of being constantly "second-guessed" is leading to them
hesitating, or trying to referee towards the VAR, rather than what
they're actually seeing in front of them." As an FL official, he has no dog in this particular fight (yet, at any rate), but he surely flagged up one unintended/unforeseen consequence. Plus the fact that I've been at games where fans of BOTH teams were chanting "Fcuk VAR" etc, so they/we don't like it, either. Meanwhile, I've yet to hear a manager come out categorically in support of VAR as an all-round "good thing" (at least since they've had a chance to see it in operation). But apart from that...
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 7:57pm |
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Excellent piece on VAR here: In particular, she (and @HelenHet20) nail it with: "... crowds want big truths, not small ones. VAR succeeds not if it gets 'more right decisions', but if fans & players think it improves the game. Like most governance, it's about consensus. If people think VAR is working, it's working. If they don't, it's not." And all the fans I'm talking to think it's not.
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planning
Ray Houghton
Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 8:05pm |
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And you believe him. Fair enough. What I believe is that, no referee has come out of the game, retired or resigned in any country on earth over the past 5 years, citing VAR reducing his power to make decisions, as the reason. By contrast, I have heard many referees who don't have VAR available, speak about the pressure they feel under, the horrendous level of stick they have to take on and off the pitch for getting a decision wrong. Or even right. And that's just at the highest level, let alone the Sunday kickabout down the park. Some have found it too much and resigned down the years because of it, therefore I believe the vast majority of referees want and welcome a second chance to get a major decision right, and make their jobs that bit easier to do. As it's name suggests, the VAR is there to assist him, nor hinder him. As regards the howling at the moon in stadiums, it has achieved nothing in the past 6 months, or indeed in the past 2 years since it was introduced in the cups. And it will achieve nothing. The culture of the game since the year dot was always to treat the ref and his officials as a running punchbag, to pressurise, intimidate, influence, and hold responsible for every decision against them. The 4th Official still gets an earful off coaches, even though his powers basically amount to holding up an info board. Now all involved have to accept that the right decision will be made more often than not. The culture is changing. Every fan who now enters a stadium is fully aware that VAR is in operation and may be required to intervene at some point. They still show up. VAR is permanent, this is Football Fair Play in action, and they have two choices, either adapt to it or find something else to do with their time.
All you've posted on the thread is populist myths. While you were doing it again, I went off to scan the latest facts. In the EPL so far, 75 wrong decisions (outrages/injustices/diving/cheating) changed. 1/3.3 games 9 Goals awarded 35 ghost goals disallowed. 12 more penalties awarded than last season. 4 ghost penalties (outrages/injustices/diving/cheating) cancelled. 3 red cards rescinded i.e. 3 players saved from automatic 3 game bans they would serve without VAR in operation. Mistaken Identity cases: 0. Average time taken per decision: 91 seconds. I'm sure the EPL/PGMOL can just roll out them stats when people sing about VAR and can't come up with alternatives, beyond calling for the impossible. |
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VAR: Cutting the crap out of football.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 9:21pm |
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you are absolutely deluded. You've claimed that with VAR, it basically made mouthing at the ref, intimidation of the ref, and surrounding of the ref by the players non existent. Where do you stand on that now? You've claimed that with VAR, penalties would be given for handballs left, right, and centre and this is how football will be going forward. That was complete nonsense. Where do you stand on that now? You've claimed that offside decisions are black and white and VAR cannot get these wrong, which is a complete myth. Where do you stand on that now? You claimed that all supporters and people involved in the game care about are the correct decisions, no matter if the VAR spends an eternity looking over the most ridiculous of calls. Almost every football supporter absolutely hates the delays and the killing of the flow of the game (the most important thing in football imo in comparison to other sports). You believe that none of that matters and if it becomes like rugby or cricket, so be it - where do you stand on that now? You've claimed countless times that diving will be non existent with VAR. It is clearly a rampant problem still in the game and VAR has not even got the jurisdiction to deal with it in most cases - where do you stand on that now? |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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planning
Ray Houghton
Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 10:39pm |
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It's not a rampant problem. Any forward who dives in the box now has been, and will be caught and penalised. My stance has not changed. VAR is there to get the right decision, so if the right decision is made, (and most agree the right decision is made) it is the only thing that counts. My stance has not changed. There are many stoppages in a game as it is without VAR, up to 20 minutes total in most cases, sometimes more. It wasn't an issue before VAR, and it's not an issue now. It's not time wasting, it's doing a job, and it takes as long as it takes. It then gives the time "lost" back in stoppage time at the end of the game. Offside decisions are black and white. My stance has not changed. While glaring inaccuracies between what the ref sees on the pitch and what the VAR sees on the screen, such as Chelsea v Bournemouth, are rightly corrected on the spot. That is not possible without VAR, and that goal may ultimately be the difference between who stays up and who does not. VAR is giving penalties for handball offences, across the world. To claim or imply otherwise, is wrong. The RRA monitor has been used twice in the EPL. When the final decision after both incidents was made, there was no protest of any kind from either the players or management from both teams. The decision was accepted by everyone. Therefore, my stance has not changed. People call for VAR to be scrapped. They are completely delusional. Honestly, there is more chance of West Ham going back to Upton Park again. I know they want to, but the fact is, they can't. End of story.
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VAR: Cutting the crap out of football.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 10:46pm |
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Absolute garbage. Every single word of that.
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 10:54pm |
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Of course I believe him. I've known him for years, he volunteered the information before knowing my own take on the issue, he's not been subject to it himself and he has no reason to lie.
It's barely been introduced, ffs! Moreover, it's only in the elite leagues, where referees are full-time (or as good as). Do you really expect them to jeopardise/abandon their career, which may only have a couple of years to run, over this? Meanwhile, no serving referee is EVER going to come out and condemn it, since that would be career suicide.
You don't need to tell me about that - my brother used to be a referee, to a decent standard, and then until rmore ecently, a referee's assessor. But for all that referees get unwarranted abuse as you describe, 99.9% of them are never going to referee under VAR. And as my pal commented, the 0.1% who do don't like it (he used the term "hate it"), it's just that they cannot come out and say so.
I've now been to a dozen games or so games with VAR. I can tell you now that I've yet to find any single supporter, home or away, who think it a good thing. Which is why we uniformly express our displeasure by booing etc, as fans are won't to do. As for your "choice" (take it or leave), why should we be forced into either? VAR is for the professional game only, and the elite level of the professional game at that. And it should never be forgotten that ultimately, the only thing which distinguishes pro football from the amateur version played by millions of people all over the world is that the former is supported (literally and figuratively) by the thousands who pay good money every week to watch the games. And you would effectively tell us to piss off if we don't like what we're getting? Would you tell that to the players, pundits, managers and (ahem) referees who don't like it either?
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planning
Ray Houghton
Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 11:52pm |
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There is no alternative to VAR. Once it's in the game, it stays in. I didn't tell anyone to pis off, I told them they have a choice. They either go to games and live with the new reality of watching games, or they're free to go and do something else. Either way, it's not changing, and that's that. Unfortunately, we don't have VAR here at any level in Ireland, but I look forward to going to them, and if I think a decision needs to be reviewed, I am more than willing to wait for the officials to do their job, it's no problem, I will wait. My message to them is, Give me the correct decision and we'll argue about the optics later. These games often cost 50 quid a head, so I want justice on a football pitch on the spot, not a token investigation opened 3 days later, after the damage has been done and everyone has long since gone home. VAR is in operation in leagues in approx 40 countries, most international tournaments, and still growing rapidly. It's already in lower divisions in Germany and Spain, it's in the Euro playoffs next month, and it's in the UEFA Cup next season. It's only gong to expand further, and probably cover more decisions than it does atm. It's mainly but not exclusively at the elite levels atm. But at the rate of expansion, in 10 years or so, I think it will be routine procedure in the professional game. If any ref is that upset about an assistant to help make his job easier, he is perfectly free to walk away, tell us all why he is doing so, and do something else. That's what one of the top refs did in Europe, Anders Frisk who said he had enough of stick and threats and he walked. To date, no referee has done that because of VAR, so that shows me that most are happy to have someone looking out for them and only stepping in when they absolutely have to.
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VAR: Cutting the crap out of football.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 12:00am |
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You comment as if VAR has corrected every wrong decision in matches since its introduction, yet everybody can see numerous incorrect calls in games every weekend.
You do realise that VAR is just a human being with technology to assist (technology that isn't anywhere near up to scratch btw)? You realise that the VAR will continue to regularly get decisions wrong as the human beings and technology involved simply aren't up to standard? |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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jamie2905
Kevin Kilbane 
Joined: 06 Oct 2017 Location: Lapland Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 9:56am |
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Just incredible how long this discussion is going on for.
The fact is VAR has got significantly more decisions right than it has got wrong, therefore it stays. As of 13th January, VAR had 97.9% decisions correct. Although I could argue with how it is being used (not looking at monitors, VAR being under qualified, and tech not being quite good enough for marginal offsides) it is much better than nothing at all. Once again, 97.9%.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 10:12am |
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I love those 99.99765 percent correct stats
I wonder who releases those figures to the public? |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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jamie2905
Kevin Kilbane
Joined: 06 Oct 2017 Location: Lapland Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 10:24am |
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Well thank Christ you aren't making the decisions, clearly can't read very well. 97.9. Not 99.99765.
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Hans Moleman wrote:
The original decision on the pitch stands anyway.