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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The Reade matter creates a difficulty for progressives who might already be less than accepting of Biden. Unlike Republicans who would vote for the Devil if he was in the colours, Democrats do think a little deeper about their candidates, which also has its downsides. In particular, if retaining your principles means voting third party or staying at home, which inherently helps Trump.

It’s a dilemma for progressives,  whose instincts will be to believe Reade. And that may result in voting for Biden (in spite of this) which will feel less than principled, or limiting definition of me-too, which lacks principle, or avoiding the election and helping Engage another four years of Trump, and all that comes with it.
The Republican strategy is split the Democratic vote by active measures with the support of Russia to take down Biden, and/or splitting and discrediting the #metoo movement, which they desperately want to destroy anyway, because as a party they basically have a massive rape and sexual assault fetish.

Sure have a look at the other fake allegation doing the rounds - the niece of that lunatic Christine O'Donnell accused Biden of "complimenting her on the size of her breasts" at a political dinner in Delaware in 2008. 

The story was supposedly based on "seven sources". 

The only problem? Biden wasn't there. The allegation was a flat out lie. 

And who covered it and pushed it? A reporter from the Intercept, who are disgracing themselves at the moment. Then again Glenn Greenwald is a useful idiot at best. He'll hype up any two-bit allegation against a Democrat, regardless of whether it's true or not, and completely ignores anything the Republicans get up to, in between his appearances on Fox News. 

The behaviour of the dirtbag left during this has been disgraceful. They'll hand the White House to Trump again, and it seems to me that that's exactly what they want to do. 

Examine people's position on Russia. The dirtbag left are soft as sh*t on Russia at best, and many of them are active disinformation pushers. If somebody is soft on Russia, that's a serious red flag.

And obviously the Republican party is effectively a wholly owned subsidiary of Russia at this stage.







Edited by sid waddell - 03 May 2020 at 10:57pm
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:


What do you think on the odds of Trump being re-elected Sid? 50/50 or Biden to scrape it?
Biden will have more real votes. 

Trump will probably "win" because the election will likely be fixed. 

Republicans will enact a range of anti-democracy measures.

You'll have the usual voter suppression, ethnic minority people being arbitrairily struck off voting registers, massive queues many hours long - but only in places that vote Democratic, mostly ethnic minority areas. 

We'll have six months of Russian active measures and vicious smears to create a fantasy world to the advantage of Trump. 

So called "liberal" media will bend over backwards to frame stories to Trump's advantage because they're gutless and petrified of being called "biased" by Trump.

Then there's COVID to think about. Make no mistake that Trump sees COVID as a way to win. He won't allow widespread mail-in voting because there are more people who tend to vote Democratic and he's also trying to bankrupt the US Postal Service so it won't be able to handle a mail-in election. He and the Republicans will likely turn voting into a nightmare for those in Democratic areas, who will have to literally risk their health to vote, by queueing for hours on end. There will be no such problems in Republican voting areas.

Republicans have point blank refused to enact any sort of security measures and are openly encouraging Russian interference. 

I expect this will go right up to hacking of the actual voting machines in order to falsify results.

If by some miracle Biden actually wins despite all that, Trump will likely have to be literally dragged out of the White House and there could be genuine carnage on the streets because the corporate-sponsored NRA scumbags who are occupying regional capitol buildings at the moment will be out again to try and deny democracy.
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Liam Brady
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Points: 2015 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mulvanystrasse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 3:06am
Originally posted by Il Principe Il Principe wrote:

Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

We’re giving yanks way too much credit here. 
Trump @ evens is a no brainer imo considering the opposition 

exactly, the vast majority of people have absolutely no clue about politics and will just vote for someone they recognise. these days you need celebrity and in america trump has the brand so unless oprah or george clooney shows up it's a walkover. nobody knows joe biden even if he is a former VP.

Trump lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton by 3 million votes in 2016. 
Joe Biden is leading Trump in the polls in 5 key battleground states; Florida, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Joe Biden is very well known by voters in the USA, he was a senator for 36 years, Vice President for 8 years. Biden is backed by trade unions which is particularly important in the key swing states of Pennsylvania (where Biden is originally from) Ohio, Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin.
If both candidates stay healthy, this will be a very close election.
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by flipper flipper wrote:

The Christine Blasey Ford allegations weren’t as credible as these allegations against Biden, nor were they as serious. However they were to the forefront of the world media for weeks and resulted in mass protests and incredibly annoying social media activity. It’s also no surprise that the very people who insisted we believe all women are now saying the exact opposite.


When the Democrats began weaponising fake sexual assault allegations they should have known that the Republicans would fight fire with fire at some stage. Then they go and hand it to them on a plate by running an obvious creep like Joe Biden. 


It’s not so clear cut who would actually be a worse president between these two. You have Trump with all of his obvious shortcomings. Then you have Biden, a corporatist war mongering drug warrior and stalwart of the surveillance state who seems to be deteriorating rapidly into dementia. 


One of the overlooked tragedies of the current global pandemic is that we may not get to experience the full glory of the epic farce that this election is sure to be.

First of all, Blasey Ford's story was infinitely more credible than Reade's, who has changed her story numerous times and literally contradicted herself completely. 

Second of all, nice copy and paste.
Regardless of whether she was assaulted or not, leave that aside for a minute because you think who she told is more important than corroborating evidence, but that language is extremely toxic. As has been proven, time and time again, that is often difficult for the victim to remember traumatic events. Even if this is, as you say, 100% fabrication, which seems implausible and frankly impossible, adding that pressure and fear will stop other women from coming forward. This means that if this is all a Republican/Russian/whatever tinfoil hat ya fancy here plot, they will still win, even if she doesn't. 
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The Reade matter creates a difficulty for progressives who might already be less than accepting of Biden. Unlike Republicans who would vote for the Devil if he was in the colours, Democrats do think a little deeper about their candidates, which also has its downsides. In particular, if retaining your principles means voting third party or staying at home, which inherently helps Trump.

It’s a dilemma for progressives,  whose instincts will be to believe Reade. And that may result in voting for Biden (in spite of this) which will feel less than principled, or limiting definition of me-too, which lacks principle, or avoiding the election and helping Engage another four years of Trump, and all that comes with it.
That's a fair assessment. It is interesting watching a lot of Democrats, feminists and progressives all bite their tongue on Reade's allegations because of the greater good.
There is more than a chance she is being egged on by Republicans, but even so there's a more than a fair chance that she is telling the truth. The Democrats only have themselves to blame for picking a candidate that was very likely to have such skeletons in his closet.

Regarding is Biden any better than Trump, the answer is overwhelmingly yes. Four years ago I thought the same. Trump offered unpredictability and Clinton offered more of the same disastrous foreign policy of all her predecessors, but the reality is that he is the man most likely to be responsible for the war that ends it all. Biden has very few redeeming features,  but the main one is that he isn't Trump. 

And what is extraordinary is that some of the criticisms hat people have about Biden, would very much fit when describing Trump. The fact that people regularly use the words “senile” and “creepy” regarding Biden shows that it has worked. They even seem to be watching every inch of footage about Biden to see where his hands are, or if his eyes close in order to paint and image, which is totally out of context.

The “not Trump” mantra should be compelling. But also, he is a harder candidate to sling mud at than Clinton, who undoubtedly suffered as a result of her gender (there were other factors at play too). This is why the Republicans have gone for the lowest denominator when attacking him.

I can’t find it now, but there was an interesting article which reconciled believing Tara Reade, but also voting for Biden. It made the point that we have seen trump in office, and we know what he is like, and that should be sufficient to want him out. But also, taking the edgy “I stayed at home”, or “I voted for Jill Stein” approach doesn’t help either, as the system (for better or WORSE) is a binary, two party system. The article also acknowledged that the Dems had other candidates that couldn’t suffer the same criticisms, but they have chosen Biden, and that is what they have to work with.
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Robbie Keane
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Sometimes in life you had to make the least worst decision  in this case there are 3 choices 

Vote for trump 
Vote for Biden
Dont vote  

All 3 have implications. If you hate one over the other then not voting is not a good option. The only time not voting here is a sensible option if you genuinely think both are as bad as each for you and the rest of the world and you want to make.a point.   
AKA pedantic kunt
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Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Sometimes in life you had to make the least worst decision  in this case there are 3 4 choices 

Vote for trump 
Vote for Biden
Spoil your vote
Dont vote  

All 3 have implications. If you hate one over the other then not voting is not a good option. The only time not voting here is a sensible option if you genuinely think both are as bad as each for you and the rest of the world and you want to make.a point.   
 
minor  edit
'Irish' Songs for an Irish team - no SPL EPL generic sh*te
Richard Dunne - 6th Sept 11 - best marshalling of a defence in Moscow since General Zukov Russia V Germany 1941
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Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Sometimes in life you had to make the least worst decision  in this case there are 3 4 choices 

Vote for trump 
Vote for Biden
Spoil your vote
Dont vote  

All 3 have implications. If you hate one over the other then not voting is not a good option. The only time not voting here is a sensible option if you genuinely think both are as bad as each for you and the rest of the world and you want to make.a point.   
 
minor  edit

Don't think you can in America? It's done by machine as far as I know 
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Roy Keane
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Another alternative is to vote Third Party. But depending on how you read the results of the 1992 or 2000 election, there is a potential to impact the vote, swinging it to a candidate you really don’t want to win.

But current third party options are not good in their own right. The Libertarians fall into the trap of a greater interest in “gun rights” and “free speech” with all that entails. While the Greens are the paranoid wing of the Democrats, and I often feel go beyond the remit of a Green Party, while also espousing positions that historically made the Greens in Europe relatively unelectable.
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The Libertarians are for those Americans who don't think they are selfish enough already. 
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Regardless of whether she was assaulted or not, leave that aside for a minute because you think who she told is more important than corroborating evidence, but that language is extremely toxic. As has been proven, time and time again, that is often difficult for the victim to remember traumatic events. Even if this is, as you say, 100% fabrication, which seems implausible and frankly impossible, adding that pressure and fear will stop other women from coming forward. This means that if this is all a Republican/Russian/whatever tinfoil hat ya fancy here plot, they will still win, even if she doesn't. 
100% fabrication seems by far the most plausible scenario. 

There are only two scenarios. 100% truth and 100% fabrication. 100% truth is not a plausible scenario. At this stage it's hard to work out what Reade is even alleging, given she has cahnged her story so many times.

Shouting that "your language is toxic" is not debating. False rape allegations are what's toxic. Wanting to destroy the whole #metoo movement is toxic. 

Biden completely threw Reade and her propagandists off their game when he confronted the allegation and was open and transparent. They expected him to bungle his response. He didn't. His response, and her response to it, was telling.

What are "corroborating witnesses"? People that didn't even remember Reade telling them, and had to be coached, as Reade's were? Why did Reade have to go and contact them all before they came  forward to tell them that they suddenly remembered that she had told them something? Her brother orgininally completely contradicted her story and had to be coached by the journalist Nathan Robinson. 

Reade contradicted her own story, FFS.

Christine O'Donnell's niece suppposedly had seven "corroborating witnesses". Are you telling us we should believe them? Despite that allegation being proven to be a complete lie?

One thing I've noticed is that people who prefer not to think just dismiss mentions of Russia as "tinfoil hat" stuff. That's a complete cop out and a demonstration of bad faith. Russia is the Goebbels of American politics and worldwide in general. It's a mafia state which wants to destroy democracy worldwide and remake the world in its image and in which its influence dominates. Putin is the biggest danger to Europe since Hitler.

Russia is absolutely integral to what is happening with Trump and on the US far right.

And Russia is 100% out to wreck the US election so that Trump "wins". 
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Roy Keane
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Fascism is baked into libertarianism. Libertarianism is about giving the rich the power to devour the weak. It is all about power and inherited riches, and using that to shape society into kleptocracy.

There are two types of "libertarians". Those who are wolves in sheep's clothing - the evil ones - and the stupid ones - who genuinely believe in it but fundamentally misunderstand human nature - because to genuinely beleive in libertarianism is to fundamentally misunderstand human nature.
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And that is fine. We are not going to agree on it and you are going to keep deflecting about who she told and because he is a **** she must be lying, and all the rest of it. There's no point in going around in circles.

What I am saying is that is incredibly dangerous to start harping on about inconsistencies in the story because that will then be used, and always  has, against every woman who every comes forward in such circumstances, when anyone who has every even talked to a victim of sexual harassment, assault or worse, never mind historical abuse, knows that there are often inconsistencies and for easily understandable psychological reasons. Just saying she has inconsistencies in her story doesn't mean something didn't happen. That's the bit I took issue with. You can keep bleating away about the rest.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Another alternative is to vote Third Party. But depending on how you read the results of the 1992 or 2000 election, there is a potential to impact the vote, swinging it to a candidate you really don’t want to win.

But current third party options are not good in their own right. The Libertarians fall into the trap of a greater interest in “gun rights” and “free speech” with all that entails. While the Greens are the paranoid wing of the Democrats, and I often feel go beyond the remit of a Green Party, while also espousing positions that historically made the Greens in Europe relatively unelectable.
Third party is not a plausible option in America, unless you're in a state where the outcome is already certain. That's the system. It's a terrible system, much like the UK system is a terrible one, but voters can only work wiith what the system is.

If you want progressive politics in the US, you have to vote Democratic, and you have to change the Democratic party from within like AOC is doing. The US needs about 500 more like her.

A vote for the Green Party merely helps Trump. 

That's why Russia is eager to push third party candidates to split the Democratic party vote.

Jill Stein, who was the Green Party candidate in 2016, has serious questions to answer about her links to Putin.

Jesse Ventura, who coincidentally has eulogised Putin and worked for RT, now wants the Green Party nomination. Quelle surprise. 

Tulsi Gabbard is one to watch. She curiously endorsed Biden quite early. In my view she will withdraw that endorsement at some point and make a big deal of it, or perhaps even run herself. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could look at her, I think she's dodgy as hell and sure isn't progressive.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Fascism is baked into libertarianism. Libertarianism is about giving the rich the power to devour the weak. It is all about power and inherited riches, and using that to shape society into kleptocracy.

There are two types of "libertarians". Those who are wolves in sheep's clothing - the evil ones - and the stupid ones - who genuinely believe in it but fundamentally misunderstand human nature - because to genuinely beleive in libertarianism is to fundamentally misunderstand human nature.

Philosophically, I totally disagree with that. Genuine libertarians, who have read the philosophy behind it believe in things like open borders, reproductive rights, anti capital punishment, government safety nets when necessary (that is in the philosophical works of the best known libertarian thinkers), ending the war on drugs, and above all committing the least harm to the least number of people while maximising freedoms at all times and basing the heirarchy of rights, in those terms. As a philosophy it has major holes. It doesn’t live in the real world as it doesn’t accept real world issues and starts from a position that could only be engendered in caveman times.

Having said that, after Libertarianism gathered pace again after the crash there was undoubtedly far right wingers who hid under the tag, often when their agenda was most related to restricting reproductive rights, or a “free speech” agenda which was more interested in having the so called “right to offend”. It also became a rallying call for gun nuts who say it as an issue that fitted well with Libertarianism.  I feel the term was co-opted and ultimately taken by people who aren’t actually libertarian in the philosophical sense, and are entirely inconsistent about when an where they want the state involved.


Edited by Het-field - 04 May 2020 at 12:04pm
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And that is fine. We are not going to agree on it and you are going to keep deflecting about who she told and because he is a **** she must be lying, and all the rest of it. There's no point in going around in circles.

What I am saying is that is incredibly dangerous to start harping on about inconsistencies in the story because that will then be used, and always  has, against every woman who every comes forward in such circumstances, when anyone who has every even talked to a victim of sexual harassment, assault or worse, never mind historical abuse, knows that there are often inconsistencies and for easily understandable psychological reasons. Just saying she has inconsistencies in her story doesn't mean something didn't happen. That's the bit I took issue with. You can keep bleating away about the rest.
In many rape allegations, there are inconsistencies within normal parameters, which are understandable, and which you expect. 

In this case, there are wild inconsistencies which are not within normal parameters, and blatant contradications, which totally discredit the allegation. 

Your mistake is that in this case you're confusing the latter with the former.

And in Reade's case, her life is a history of bizarre and manipulative behaviour, theft, and tall tales.

I'll keep saying it, but the Republicans have two aims here:
i) Destroy Biden, or more importantly, destroy his vote, so Trump wins.
ii) Destroy the #metoo movement by pushing false allegations in order to destroy the credibility of rape complainants in general. Which lets Trump and the rest of rape fetishising Republicans off the hook. You may note that one of the lines they are pushing heavily is "look at the hypocrisy of the #metoo people". Note also that te Russian regime, which Trump is in lockstep with, decriminalised domestic violence. This is part of a wider strategy of the international far right to destroy women's rights. 

And also propaganda 101. 
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Roy Keane
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Totally agree that voting Third Party isn’t a viable option. It’s just an option. The Kang and Kodos “throw your vote away” was a great summation.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Fascism is baked into libertarianism. Libertarianism is about giving the rich the power to devour the weak. It is all about power and inherited riches, and using that to shape society into kleptocracy.

There are two types of "libertarians". Those who are wolves in sheep's clothing - the evil ones - and the stupid ones - who genuinely believe in it but fundamentally misunderstand human nature - because to genuinely beleive in libertarianism is to fundamentally misunderstand human nature.

Philosophically, I totally disagree with that. Genuine libertarians, who have read the philosophy behind it believe in things like open borders, reproductive rights, anti capital punishment, government safety nets when necessary (that is in the philosophical works of the best known libertarian thinkers), ending the war on drugs, and above all committing the least harm to the least number of people while maximising freedoms at all times and basing the heirarchy of rights, in those terms. As a philosophy it has major holes. It doesn’t live in the real world as it doesn’t accept real world issues and starts from a position that could only be engendered in caveman times.

Having said that, after Libertarianism gathered pace again after the crash there was undoubtedly far right wingers who hid under the tag, often when their agenda was most related to restricting reproductive rights, or a “free speech” agenda which was more interested in having the so called “right to offend”. It also became a rallying call for gun nuts who say it as an issue that fitted well with Libertarianism.  I feel the term was co-opted and ultimately taken by people who aren’t actually libertarian in the philosophical sense, and are entirely inconsistent about when an where they want the state involved.
It wasn't co-opted at all. That's what it has always been at its heart. The logical conclusions of libertarianism are frightening. 

It was totally predictable that libertarianism would descend into what is basically fascism. 

I do hate to generalise, but libertarianism is basically fascists who smoked joints in college. 

As a demonstration of what it is, the Spiked Online set are very notable - many of them started out in the Revolutionary Communist Party in the 1980s. Now you have Claire Fox saying that child porn should be legalised.

Libertarianism is basically nihilism.
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