We’re not Brasil we’re Tuaisceart Éireann |
Post Reply | Page <1 185186187188189 369> |
Author | ||||||||||||
Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
Sometimes I feel like I'm Father Ted trying to explain perspective to Father Dougal: "The Northern Ireland team is near, a United Ireland team is far, far away..." Were there to be a single Irish international team, that must inevitably mean the abolition/ending/discontinuance/whatever of the NI team. Which is what the overwhelming majority of the NI support opposes (even if the ROI support is insufficiently bothered about their team disappearing to resist the notion for themselves). Why cannot you see my/our point? And why won't you accept that there is NO precedent for any such "replacement" team, unless/until there is a single political jurisdiction on the island. And even then that would be no guarantee, as eg China/HK/Macao demonstrates. Edited by Territorial - 07 Feb 2018 at 1:33pm |
||||||||||||
Sponsored Links | ||||||||||||
thebronze14
Jack Charlton Derry City Til I Die Joined: 22 Feb 2011 Location: Dublin/Donegal Status: Offline Points: 7191 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
Played them in two friendlies before and they were two enjoyable games! Pints after in Dundela club house and all
|
||||||||||||
Bob Hoskins
Moderator Group Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Status: Offline Points: 20175 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
I know I was there drinking with you. Were you drinking in the Fingal House afterwards as well Edited by Bob Hoskins - 07 Feb 2018 at 1:37pm |
||||||||||||
Romario 2016: And the ticket mafia gets caught! Well, four years ago I had already told the government.
|
||||||||||||
Floreat Ultonia
500 Club la la la Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Location: Dudley, England Status: Offline Points: 733 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
Terri- Dave and other RoI fans understand your point quite well, but aren't going to agree to it. Because that would contradict the whole foundation myth of an inevitable united Ireland past, present and future ;)
|
||||||||||||
SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
I'm going to ignore this bit.
I do see your point - but a United Ireland team would mean a team for the entire 32 counties. It wouldn't have to be one team subsuming another. As has been wittily put in the past, the IFA have no problem in accepting it if the breakaway FAI want to cease operations. I accept that the majority of the NI support oppose a United Ireland team - but that's not the point. The team does not represent the NI support, it represents Northern Ireland as a whole. That's the basic point of a representative international team, and you are ignoring it. Until you address it, your point has limited validity.
I've never said, before now, that there is precedent. You haven't said why there needs to be precedent either. Although now I am saying there is precedent for a team representing multiple sovereign states, aside from the CIS example above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Bonini A Sammarinese player who played for Italy Under-23s before the San Marino team was recognised by UEFA. San Marino has always been a sovereign state (well, since 301AD), yet the Italian team before 1990 effectively included San Marino. I'm not sure what the position is with Monagasque players today, or Andorrans before they became UEFA/FIFA members. Now, there isn't an example of a united team involving one sovereign state and a part of another sovereign state, but frankly that's asking far too much - Ireland's history and partition, with one part ultimately remaining part of the UK, is close to unique. Up until the dissolving of the Northern administration in the 1960's, they were classed by the UK as a dominion, as far as I know, and entitled to pass acts in accordance with the 1931 Statute of Westminster, and declare independence. Certainly, until 1937 and the passage of the Constitution of Ireland, and arguably until the passage of the Republic of Ireland Act, both the north and the south had an equal position in the eyes of the UK government, effectively as two equal dominions. The fact that the north now is different, and effectively a part of the UK, is an artifact of history, civil rights and the troubles, more than anything else. There are a heap of representative sides that do represent the entire island of Ireland - football is very much the exception, rather than the rule. Also, until the 1940s or 1950s, both teams used to select players from either side of the border, and were allowed to do so, so there is indeed history here, never mind anywhere else. I don't see the need to provide precedent, but there is, now I think about it, heaps.
Indeed - have a look at the Yes Minister (or was it Yes Prime Minister?) bit on national service. It all depends on framing. While NI fans may oppose it, I think there's a good chance the majority of the population would be in favour of a united team, depending on how it is phrased. I'll certainly agree on that.
Again, there's a difference between NI fans and the NI population as a whole. I certainly don't think the NI fanbase is representative of the NI population as a whole, for the reason that a vast minority of the population don't support the team. As a final point, both of you seem to conflate the identities of the Northern Ireland fanbase with the Northern Ireland population as a whole - that's wanton cultural blindness. I appreciate the IFA have been doing very good work in cross-community engagement but there's no doubt that the fanbase is not representative of the population as a whole, much and all as it may be moving in the right direction. Finally, as a northerner who has lived in Dublin for fifteen years and who supports the ROI, I do still want Northern Ireland to do well - I just think we'd do better as a united team. Edited by SuperDave84 - 07 Feb 2018 at 2:03pm |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Trap junior
Robbie Keane YBIG Minister of Doom & Gloom Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Location: Irish Riviera Status: Offline Points: 39902 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
If you join a United Ireland we will give you 50 % off a season ticket and a years supply of Jaffa Cakes and 100 euro worth of Bitcoin. We will even let Jackie Fullerton replace Darragh Moloney as presnter. Can't say fairer than that.
|
||||||||||||
Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC) |
||||||||||||
Floreat Ultonia
500 Club la la la Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Location: Dudley, England Status: Offline Points: 733 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
You what? In the same post you quoted me saying almost the exact opposite. Most people have only a passing interest in the game; in NI most of those that do are divided into two. As for the cultural blindness charge, apart from being pretentious you are simply wrong. I acknowledge all cultures (and fwiw I've also lived in the South). ps as I've pointed out previously on here, many of NI's leading performers represent themselves, NI (in the Commonwealth Games as well as FIFA/ UEFA), Britain or occasionally England. Your implication that the IFA is an anomaly is misleading- I'd say the IRFU is at least as much so. Edited by Floreat Ultonia - 07 Feb 2018 at 2:31pm |
||||||||||||
Denis Irwin
Robbie Keane Stay Home & watch Lethal Weapon Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Location: Ath Cliath Status: Online Points: 37966 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".
Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn |
||||||||||||
SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
That's what I was clearly referring to. At a fear of labouring the point by repetition, t's not about what *your fans* want, it's about what the *NI population* want. That's the cultural blindness I was referring to - you both seem to believe that the opinion of NI fans on the status and existence of a United Ireland team is the determining factor, rather than the opinion of the NI population as a whole. I may be pretentious by bringing it up (that's 1-1 in the ad hominem score between you and Terry now, as an aside), but it's textbook cultural blindness, ignoring the vast minority of the NI population who don't identify with the NI team. You only accept the cultural viewpoint of the part of the population you happen to be a member of, rather than the population as a whole, at least going on the evidence of the pedestal that you put the opinion of the NI fanbase on. Edited by SuperDave84 - 07 Feb 2018 at 2:30pm |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Floreat Ultonia
500 Club la la la Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Location: Dudley, England Status: Offline Points: 733 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
You can labour the point all you like. The future of the NI team clearly is about what NI fans want, at least as opposed to largely uninterested people answering loaded questions in a notional survey that you haven't found on google. If/ When that fanbase changes its mind, or declines to a tiny rump, by all means get back to me.
More generally, of course I respect the wish of the electorate. I vote (and stand) after all. I haven't ignored anyone. Not guilty on the ad hominem charge. You criticised me personally, I responded in kind (both quite gently). I haven't put anyone on a pedestal. Both by not ignoring the people/ culture/ whataboutery you say I am, or more directly as I'm clearly not shy of criticising NI/ IFA/ their fans.
|
||||||||||||
Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
And you have neither the right nor the means to determine that. So if you really want to achieve your aims, may I respectively suggest you stop making futile, antagonistic and divisive proposals for football and start campaigning politically for a United Ireland, ideally back in Northern Ireland. (Good Luck with that, btw )
The Northern Ireland team represents the Irish Football Association, no more, no less. Which reflects the fundamental ethos, constitution and practices of FIFA, i.e. it is made up of Member Associations, of which ours is the fourth oldest, as it happens.
Therefore the onus is on you to persuade FIFA why they should overturn and reverse all of the above for a single Irish international team to exist, not on us to justify why we should continue to exist. (Good Luck with that one, too!)
"The CIS national football team was a transitional national team of the Football Federation of the Soviet Union in 1992. It was accepted that the team would represent the Commonwealth of independent States. The CIS team was created to allow the USSR national team further participation as it had already booked a spot in Euro 1992 through the 1991 qualification tournament. The only way to preserve the spot for the post-Soviet team was to take part in the competition as a unified team. Players had an option either to play for the team or to play for a team of their country. With the end of UEFA Euro 1992, the Russia national team was recognized as the only successor of the CIS team." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIS_national_football_team You are, of course, free to try to persuade FIFA that the above constitutes a precedent for your proposal. And Good Luck with that one as well!
Anyhow, the great Alfredo Di Stefano played for three different international teams, for instance, but that still has about as much relevance to your proposal as your Signor Bonini i.e. none.
Is there anything in the above which relates even tangentially to the Constitution, Statutes or practices of FIFA as they apply to admission to, or dissolution of, their Membership? (Rhetorical question, btw) For you don't seem to get it, we're not talking about Politics, the United Nations or the Way of the World etc, we're talking about Football, FIFA and the World Cup.
And I don't generally give a sh*t about these other all-Ireland teams/sports to which you refer, at least not if it's a question of diluting or otherwise compromising my support for my international football team.
I don't see the need to provide precedent, but there is, now I think about it, heaps. And these dual nationals would not have been able, never mind permitted, to play for the two teams had FIFA not recognised BOTH Member Associations, then as now. Frankly, FIFA long didn't give a sh*t about Irish dual internationals, since their existence had no practical effect whilst NI only played British Championships games and friendlies and ROI only friendlies, until both decided to enter the 1950 World Cup and it became obvious players could not play for two teams in the same competition. However, it speaks against your case that FIFA did not decide to mandate a single Irish team (or exclude the IFA team); rather it decreed that both teams should continue to exist independently and players must play for one or the other (only).
Where does it say that a fanbase has to be "representative" of any population, and for that to determine the existence or otherwise of a Member Association of FIFA? I don't know how many fans the Canadian football ("soccer") team has, but they are so few as to be anything but representative of what Canadians (Anglophone or Francophone) want. And the same goes for New Zealand or any other of a host of countries where the population don't really care for their team in particular, or the sport in general. Which you should be glad of, for fear that the (majority) GAA and Rugby-supporting population of the Republic don't get together to 'reduce the competition' by voting your football team out of existence!
f**k that - I'm all for merging with Brazil then! Or would be, if mere "doing better" were the criterion for receiving my support. I mean, "do better"? I genuinely don't intend any personal offence, but I find that sad, very sad. Edited by Territorial - 07 Feb 2018 at 4:08pm |
||||||||||||
Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
You in?
|
||||||||||||
randyrandolph
500 Club la la la Joined: 09 May 2016 Status: Offline Points: 685 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
terri, 2 questions.
1) will you be visiting your capital city in November? & 2) do you have a job? I only ask as its remarkable how much time you have spent posting on an irish football forum (and by job i dont mean guarding the bonfire every summer...)
|
||||||||||||
Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Cabra Hoop
Roy Keane Joined: 06 Feb 2012 Location: Royal County Status: Offline Points: 10870 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
It's a done deal. Membership is now open for the Anthony Stokes Sandy Row Ireland Supporters Club..
|
||||||||||||
" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "
|
||||||||||||
Trap junior
Robbie Keane YBIG Minister of Doom & Gloom Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Location: Irish Riviera Status: Offline Points: 39902 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
f**k that I'd take Michael though |
||||||||||||
Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC) |
||||||||||||
Jason Kelly
Liam Brady Joined: 10 May 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1188 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
This crowd shouldn't even be allowed to play international Football.
I don't know why people are even discussing the possibility of an All Ireland team. There already is an All Ireland team ffs. Whether your from Cork or Derry you can represent Ireland at Football and play under the tricolor. |
||||||||||||
horsebox
Robbie Keane Born n bred in darndale. Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 34935 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||
That's a very partitionist attitude.
|
||||||||||||
It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1 185186187188189 369> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |