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Paul McGrath
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The question that I think has been most compelling for the removal of statues etc is whether you have agreed with their removal in the past, or in jurisdictions which are not of the "West". Ingrained in a split attitude would be a hypocrisy, especially if you could make the same allegations, or even assert the same facts about a statue.

The whole statue thing is absolute nonsense, regardless of the history behind them, and on the other side it's giving thugs a reason to have start throwing punches - The people from Saturday never even had a political view but saw it as an opportunity to start causing mayhem.

But the thugs do have a point, it's absolute nonsense behaviour from the other side.

It's a bit like saying I'm gonna vandalise the Bob Stokoe statue outside the Stadium of Light just because he's from Newcastle. It's absolute crap.
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The question that I think has been most compelling for the removal of statues etc is whether you have agreed with their removal in the past, or in jurisdictions which are not of the "West". Ingrained in a split attitude would be a hypocrisy, especially if you could make the same allegations, or even assert the same facts about a statue.

The whole statue thing is absolute nonsense, regardless of the history behind them, and on the other side it's giving thugs a reason to have start throwing punches - The people from Saturday never even had a political view but saw it as an opportunity to start causing mayhem.

But the thugs do have a point, it's absolute nonsense behaviour from the other side.

It's a bit like saying I'm gonna vandalise the Bob Stokoe statue outside the Stadium of Light just because he's from Newcastle. It's absolute crap.
So symbols of racism and slavery should be kept in place just so the far right won't get offended.

Like, what the absolute fook.
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No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.


Edited by coyne - 18 Jun 2020 at 5:44pm
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.
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" Many fine people on all sides....on all sides."

D Trump@ Charlottesville
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.

Your obsession with the far right supposedly taking over the world you continuously spout on about is there to decide how to take yours.
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.

Unfortunately Sid the left/progressive left engage in false equivalency too when it comes to political issues. It's not just restricted to the right wing.  


Edited by irishmufc - 18 Jun 2020 at 6:19pm
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.

Your obsession with the far right supposedly taking over the world you continuously spout on about is there to decide how to take yours.
Well if you actually have a look around you, the far right are in power in the US, the UK, Russia, Turkey, India, Brazil, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Hungary, Poland and the Philippines and are strongly threatening to take over in France and Italy. China is a dictatorial regime which employs the tactics of the far right.

So my so callled "obsession" is rooted in observable facts whereas your dismissals of what I say is mere blowhard gaslighting.
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The movement was solely focused on police brutality, not f**king statues, and I do hope they succeed because the higher ranks in the police forces in the UK are absolute bastards.

Racism, discrimination and prejudice in all backgrounds (not just black)  is absolute rife in all police forces and the blue code of silence is very real.

Witnessed it myself on 2 occasions and it's just morally wrong.

The IOPC is established for a reason, but they're really slow on these things.


Edited by coyne - 18 Jun 2020 at 6:26pm
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.

Unfortunately Sid the left/progressive left engage in false equivalency too when it comes to political issues. It's not just restricted to the right wing.  

All sorts of people engage in false equivalency, only the far right uses it as one of the central planks of an insane culture war. 

Remind yourself what a culture war is. It's a tactic to get masses of people to identify with a "tribe" or a "side" and to completely destroy any sort of thinking so that they reject observable fact and truth in favour of Goebbels-like narratives of tribal hatred, so that masses of people can be walked blindly into supporting fascism. 

It happened in the 1930s and it's happening today. 

I make no apologies for saying I've been banging on about this stuff for years in the face of know nothing gaslighters and been proven completely and utterly correct.

Not that I'm some sort of sage or anything like it. This stuff was and is f**king obvious and to not get it, people have to be either thick as sh*t or actively approve of current day fascism.






Edited by sid waddell - 18 Jun 2020 at 6:32pm
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

The movement was solely focused on police brutality, not f**king statues
You do realise that the second issue is an entirely logical follow on from the first?

You can't tackle racism by white people saying "oh, OK, after years of saying you were wrong, we finally admit way too late that you have a point, but don't go any further - that would offend us - it's not easy to be a white person in denial about the sheer depth and breadth of white supremacist culture and how white people have continually supported and defended it, you know".

You don't tackle racism in a cherry picking, piecemeal manner, by whites half heartedly tackling the bits which have finally got too embarrassing. 

You do it by attacking it from every angle - by demanding accountability - and by f**king destroying the culture that perpetuates it.

White supremacism and the permanent official denial of the evils of empire is why there is Brexit. Brexit is indivisible from white supremacism.

Read this and learn because it's all relevant to Britain.


The people decrying the loss of things like Aunt Jemima syrup, Confederate monuments, and superheroes and pop culture figures being recast are more worried about perceived loss of cultural power than people's lives. And it's because they understand these things have actual power

While these critics like to say the Left's attempts to topple statues and create more diversity and representation as "insane" or unnecessary, what they see is that these symbols ACTUALLY create and maintain power and can block certain people from having power.

Confederate statues are there to remind African Americans the Confederacy and white supremacy survived the Civil War. Toppling them means that cultural power has shifted and that white supremacy is actually in danger.






Edited by sid waddell - 18 Jun 2020 at 6:46pm
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So if we're that interested in people's backgrounds lets protest against Boris, he's a well established racist.

And in the meantime let's protest against Starmer too - He was Head Magistrate for the midnight courts during the London riots, which again was sparked by racism, hardly a clean background either for someone who claims to be left-wing.

Just doing what suits people's agendas.
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Stick a fukin plaque on any contentious statue and move the fuk on
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the world beating app that boris has been boasting about has been cancelled . The track and trace system hasn’t worked out either.
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.

Unfortunately Sid the left/progressive left engage in false equivalency too when it comes to political issues. It's not just restricted to the right wing.  

All sorts of people engage in false equivalency, only the far right uses it as one of the central planks of an insane culture war. 

Remind yourself what a culture war is. It's a tactic to get masses of people to identify with a "tribe" or a "side" and to completely destroy any sort of thinking so that they reject observable fact and truth in favour of Goebbels-like narratives of tribal hatred, so that masses of people can be walked blindly into supporting fascism. 

It happened in the 1930s and it's happening today. 

I make no apologies for saying I've been banging on about this stuff for years in the face of know nothing gaslighters and been proven completely and utterly correct.

Not that I'm some sort of sage or anything like it. This stuff was and is f**king obvious and to not get it, people have to be either thick as sh*t or actively approve of current day fascism.





The 'culture war' is a right wing smokescreen tactic in order to distract people from more relevant issues that affect their own lives but that's not the point I'm making. I'm in agreement with you on the right's culture war distractathon.

After witnessing almost 4 years of a Trump sh*tshow presidency, I hope the purists on the left learn  their lesson that there is such a thing as one choice clearly being worse than the other. It was Bernie or Bust in 2016 and now it's Never Biden in 2020.  I've no time for corporatist centrists like Biden or Hillary but if it's choice between them and a person who clearly is not fit for office, I'd hold my nose and vote for them as that would be the responsible choice.

Figures I admire on the left like Chomsky, the film director Oliver Stone and George Galloway have serious blind spots and engage in false equivalency 'Obama is just as bad or worse than GW Bush' (Chomsky) or 'Putin didn't care who won the U.S. Election in 2016' (Stone) & Galloway coming out with (if it was his own country) he couldn't vote for Biden over Trump out of principle. It's ridiculous and you can enjoy sticking to your principles when it means 4 four more years of an authoritarian presidency under Trump.  
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

No. Someone with far too much time on their hands has gone onto Google and listed every single statue in the UK and wikipedia'd their backgrounds to decide which ones they should be "offended" about *

There is no right side, there is no political or religious agenda by doing this.
There is certainly no political or religious agenda by attacking innocent police officers for simply doing their jobs which both sides have done.

Both sides are idiots. It's just plain thuggery from both sides.


* The Bristol statue is exempt from this as it's been controversial talking point locally for a while but when they publicly denounce every single monument in the UK which doesn't suit their agenda, they're taking the f**king piss.
"Both sides" was all I needed to see there to decide how seriously to take your opinions.

Unfortunately Sid the left/progressive left engage in false equivalency too when it comes to political issues. It's not just restricted to the right wing.  

All sorts of people engage in false equivalency, only the far right uses it as one of the central planks of an insane culture war. 

Remind yourself what a culture war is. It's a tactic to get masses of people to identify with a "tribe" or a "side" and to completely destroy any sort of thinking so that they reject observable fact and truth in favour of Goebbels-like narratives of tribal hatred, so that masses of people can be walked blindly into supporting fascism. 

It happened in the 1930s and it's happening today. 

I make no apologies for saying I've been banging on about this stuff for years in the face of know nothing gaslighters and been proven completely and utterly correct.

Not that I'm some sort of sage or anything like it. This stuff was and is f**king obvious and to not get it, people have to be either thick as sh*t or actively approve of current day fascism.





The 'culture war' is a right wing smokescreen tactic in order to distract people from more relevant issues that affect their own lives but that's not the point I'm making. I'm in agreement with you on the right's culture war distractathon.

After witnessing almost 4 years of a Trump sh*tshow presidency, I hope the purists on the left learn  their lesson that there is such a thing as one choice clearly being worse than the other. It was Bernie or Bust in 2016 and now it's Never Biden in 2020.  I've no time for corporatist centrists like Biden or Hillary but if it's choice between them and a person who clearly is not fit for office, I'd hold my nose and vote for them as that would be the responsible choice.

Figures I admire on the left like Chomsky, the film director Oliver Stone and George Galloway have serious blind spots and engage in false equivalency 'Obama is just as bad or worse than GW Bush' (Chomsky) or 'Putin didn't care who won the U.S. Election in 2016' (Stone) & Galloway coming out with (if it was his own country) he couldn't vote for Biden over Trump out of principle. It's ridiculous and you can enjoy sticking to your principles when it means 4 four more years of an authoritarian presidency under Trump.  

The culture war is the vehicle for mobilisation of hatred. Literally any story can be plugged in to the far right's culture war. Example: today, there have been far right Irish posters blaming the death of Detective Colm Horkan on the Black Lives Matter protests. Seriously. 

Their insane narrative is that because US police were exposed for murdering black people over the last few weeks, the perpetrator in Castlerea thus hated police and was intent on murdering a policeman.

And they've been all over Irish social media today running with this insanity. 
 
Stone and Galloway are full on Russia propagandists. 

Pilger has gone that way too. 

In the US, Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi are fake leftists who are basically propagandists for Russia. 

Then there are other lesser known "left" "personalities" like Krystal Ball, Aaron Mate, Benjamin Norton, Katie Halpert etc. who are dodgy as f**k, I'm convinced all are sleepers for the Russians. Angela Nagle who is Irish and has appeared three times on the Second Captains podcast, well she used to be somewhat interesting but round about 2018 took a turn where she became part of the Fox News professional victimhood/contrarian set. She's another one who claims to be "left" but is not to be trusted.

All the above are "there's no difference between Biden and Trump" merchants. Most of the above relentlessly pushed the fake Biden rape story while remaining silent about Trump's litany of sexual predation including credible allegations of paedophilia.

"Both sidesism" is a giveway as to a commentator's lack of bona fides. Russia is the giveaway. Russia is a fascist, racist mafia state which wants to end democracy worldwide.  If it can't end democracy, it wants to make western countries ungovernable by exploiting existing divsions and fomenting extremism, usually far right extremism. If somebody has dodgy views on Russia, they have lost any right to be taken seriously. 

Putin was always a totally corrupt kleptocrat and a dangerous imperialist but when he became Russian president again in 2012 he immediately launched into a full blown fascist turn. This encompassed the anti-gay, fundamentalist christian, ultra conservative agenda. From 2012 on, the links with the American far right sprouted and multiplied to where we now are - pretty much the entirety of the US right-wing political/media/NGO eco-system reading straight off the Kremlin cue cards.







Edited by sid waddell - 18 Jun 2020 at 8:52pm
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Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Stick a fukin plaque on any contentious statue and move the fuk on


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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:


After witnessing almost 4 years of a Trump sh*tshow presidency, I hope the purists on the left learn  their lesson that there is such a thing as one choice clearly being worse than the other. It was Bernie or Bust in 2016 and now it's Never Biden in 2020.  I've no time for corporatist centrists like Biden or Hillary but if it's choice between them and a person who clearly is not fit for office, I'd hold my nose and vote for them as that would be the responsible choice.


I think in 2016 there was a belief amongst a wing of the “purist left“ that Trump’s presidency would be such a disaster that not only would it last for only four years, it would cause a revolution within the Democratic Party and move away from the Biden types, and it would be an easy victory for the nominee in 2020. That cynical view undoubtedly led to votes for third party candidates, and abstentions helped Trump greatly. They got the disaster part right, but the certainty of a Trump defeat in 2020 is not secure at all.
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