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Bob Hoskins View Drop Down
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Points: 20175 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Hoskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

There is a really perverse part of me that wants to see the f**kers suffer and lie in their sh*t-filled bed. Even though I know it's going to hammer us.

True colours have come out in the past number of months. They never really changed did they?

We never went away you know 


 


Romario 2016: And the ticket mafia gets caught! Well, four years ago I had already told the government.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Bunch of neo-liberal ****s. They want a new politics by adding to the choice between the friendly looking, but equally spiteful Blair/Macron/Clinton capitalism and the Brexit/Le Pen/Trump right-wing bollocks. 

Corbyn stood and fought through Blairism, against the Iraq war and the privatisation that furthered Thatcherism and set Britain back further. These neo-liberal ****s start seeing a Labour Party acting like a Labour Party and they throw their toys out of the pram. f**k off ye bunch of ****s.

I have some sympathy for Berger, it seems she was getting a lot of abuse based on her background online, but, in saying that, she is a liberal and not a socialist, democratic or otherwise. She joined 'New Labour' and was never 'real' labour.
 
Berger the living embodiment of a Guardian editorial.
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3,500 jobs gone in Swindon. Honda closing it's factory 
Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".

Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn
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A fairly well-to-do town that voted for Brexit. Turkey's and Christmas come to mind.
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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I’m not sure what the 7 MPs leaving the party is actually going to do in terms of changing direction. I have become absolutely convinced that internal and external forces don’t have a clue how to handle Corbyn. Simply focusing on policy makes him a very easy target, and nobody seems to have clocked that. They could start with his approach to Brexit which is an absolute shambles. The holes in the 2017 manifesto, which were never talked about. The off the cuff policy suggestions, which should be questioned.

Focusing on the political as opposed to the personal would make a remarkable difference in this case. The actual effect of the departures is going to be zero.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

I’m not sure what the 7 MPs leaving the party is actually going to do in terms of changing direction. I have become absolutely convinced that internal and external forces don’t have a clue how to handle Corbyn. Simply focusing on policy makes him a very easy target, and nobody seems to have clocked that. They could start with his approach to Brexit which is an absolute shambles. The holes in the 2017 manifesto, which were never talked about. The off the cuff policy suggestions, which should be questioned.

Focusing on the political as opposed to the personal would make a remarkable difference in this case. The actual effect of the departures is going to be zero.
Does it not strengthen Corbyn's hand with dissidents leaving ?
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Most, if not all of the seven MPs who are leaving are simply rubber stamping the loss of their seats at the next election. 

There's a fierce bang of Renua off this. 

And barely an hour after the announcement, the new party already dug a hole for itself when Angela Smith referred to middle eastern people having a "funny tinge" live on BBC. 

This from somebody setting up a party which is supposedly anti-anti-semitism.

Deary me. 

Then there's this:


If you want an example of UK electoral law loopholes: The Independent Group, which looks/swims/quacks a lot like a political party and is asking for donations, is actually a private company. So it isn't subject to electoral law rules requiring them to declare financial backers.
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Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

I’m not sure what the 7 MPs leaving the party is actually going to do in terms of changing direction. I have become absolutely convinced that internal and external forces don’t have a clue how to handle Corbyn. Simply focusing on policy makes him a very easy target, and nobody seems to have clocked that. They could start with his approach to Brexit which is an absolute shambles. The holes in the 2017 manifesto, which were never talked about. The off the cuff policy suggestions, which should be questioned.

Focusing on the political as opposed to the personal would make a remarkable difference in this case. The actual effect of the departures is going to be zero.
Does it not strengthen Corbyn's hand with dissidents leaving ?

Yes, I would think so. The only way it could potentially weaken him, is if they form a new party, attract extra MPs to defect from the LDs or the Tories, and take out some Labour marginals that might not go Tory, but might be willing to vote for another type of Labour Party.

That being said, the strong ties to parties over personalities in the UK could mean that they have all effectively pressed the electoral politics ejector button, or have it on standby for the next GE, where an alternative Labour candidate will simply supplant them. At that point it would depend if momentum have control of the constituency or not.
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Points: 44659 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 5:04pm
It would seem unlikely, but not impossible, that it could be the beginning of the end of the two and a half party system, which would really improve democracy here. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a UKIP lite/Tory extra with the Brexiteers happens over the next few weeks, which would be great.

I might be hopeful there as the right nearly always stay together in times of crisis well the left fracture. Well, in this case the centre-right fracture themselves from the left!

Nice bit of racism from Angela Smith earlier too, I am sure she will discipline herself internally.


Edited by pre Madonna - 18 Feb 2019 at 5:08pm
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It would seem unlikely, but not impossible, that it could be the beginning of the end of the two and a half party system, which would really improve democracy here. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a UKIP lite/Tory extra with the Brexiteers happens over the next few weeks, which would be great.

I might be hopeful there as the right nearly always stay together in times of crisis well the left fracture. Well, in this case the centre-right fracture themselves from the left!

Nice bit of racism from Angela Smith earlier too, I am sure she will discipline herself internally.
Won't happen without first past the post being abolished. 

It's an abomination of a system.
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It would seem unlikely, but not impossible, that it could be the beginning of the end of the two and a half party system, which would really improve democracy here. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a UKIP lite/Tory extra with the Brexiteers happens over the next few weeks, which would be great.

I might be hopeful there as the right nearly always stay together in times of crisis well the left fracture. Well, in this case the centre-right fracture themselves from the left!

Nice bit of racism from Angela Smith earlier too, I am sure she will discipline herself internally.
Won't happen without first past the post being abolished. 

It's an abomination of a system.
Agreed. Turkeys won't vote for Christmas though.
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The course and fate of politics may have been different post 2015, had FPTP not existed then.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The course and fate of politics may have been different post 2015, had FPTP not existed then.
First past the post leads to a situation where there are effectively only two parties - a rabid right-wing one and one which is variously made up of leftists and centrists, even centre right people.

Within the right-wing party, and with the help of a hatred-fuelling right wing media, the crackpots set the agenda.

But business will side with a crackpot right wing party every time over a reasonable social democratic alternative.

What has happened within the Tory party is reminiscent of what has happened within the US Republican party, because the way the British system is designed makes it inevitable.

In a PR system the crackpots wouldn't be in the Tories.

PR leads to polarisation and when there's polarisation the right-wing crackpots invariably win. 

Hatred sells. 
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

The course and fate of politics may have been different post 2015, had FPTP not existed then.
First past the post leads to a situation where there are effectively only two parties - a rabid right-wing one and one which is variously made up of leftists and centrists, even centre right people.

Within the right-wing party, and with the help of a hatred-fuelling right wing media, the crackpots set the agenda.

But business will side with a crackpot right wing party every time over a reasonable social democratic alternative.

What has happened within the Tory party is reminiscent of what has happened within the US Republican party, because the way the British system is designed makes it inevitable.

In a PR system the crackpots wouldn't be in the Tories.

PR leads to polarisation and when there's polarisation the right-wing crackpots invariably win. 

Hatred sells. 









I’m not sure I entirely agree with the outcome that a FPTP system engenders. Think in Ireland. The only thing it would determine is that it would be a rotating one-party state, with FF generally doing better than FG. It can be reduced down to the fact that when push comes to shove, FF have the greater capacity with the voter, notwithstanding their failures.

Europe generally runs on moderates. Now that might be a chicken and the egg, but there remains many two party systems where PR voting (of any description) still provides for a two party state.

Ultimately, in Europe,the “reasonable social democratic alternative” runs the gambit between raised taxes and civil liberties and unreformed communism. The lines are drawn more to the left and the right than they were before. Contemporary Sweden is a good example.


Edited by Het-field - 18 Feb 2019 at 7:14pm
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Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

3,500 jobs gone in Swindon. Honda closing it's factory 
Swindon, which voted for Brexit. 

I know there are many decent people who are Pro Europe and will lose their jobs, but my thoughts to the people of Swindon as a whole is 'slap it up ye'. 
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Originally posted by inlikeflynn inlikeflynn wrote:

Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

3,500 jobs gone in Swindon. Honda closing it's factory 
Swindon, which voted for Brexit. 

I know there are many decent people who are Pro Europe and will lose their jobs, but my thoughts to the people of Swindon as a whole is 'slap it up ye'. 
Japan now had a free trade deal with the EU. Maybe this was coming anyway.
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I'd love to see the faces on anyone who works at Honda and voted for Brexit. 
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Originally posted by corkery corkery wrote:

Originally posted by inlikeflynn inlikeflynn wrote:

Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

3,500 jobs gone in Swindon. Honda closing it's factory 
Swindon, which voted for Brexit. 

I know there are many decent people who are Pro Europe and will lose their jobs, but my thoughts to the people of Swindon as a whole is 'slap it up ye'. 
Japan now had a free trade deal with the EU. Maybe this was coming anyway.

It is a factor, however the FTA made the decision to transfer production to Japan easier as they have no existing facility in continental Europe to expand. Brexit would have meant tariff barriers as well as non-tariff barriers.  Honda had planned pre-brexit to continue building the civic in Swindon after 2022. This is the result of brexit. They are pulling out of Turkey because of political and economic instability there.

What's not been mentioned is there's circa 6000 jobs on top of the 3k at Swindon at risk. They work for the dozen or so Japanese owned suppliers based in the UK who's sole client is Honda (the odd one of two supply other Japanese car firms but that's little comfort) in Swindon. That 6k relates to just Japanese owned firms. There's many thousands of more people employed by other companies who'll be affected by this decision.


Edited by colemanY2K - 19 Feb 2019 at 7:55am
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