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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I can understand H2H's point here though. In all likelihood it is Russia, but are we really going to start a whole new series of international tensions without any proof? My own support and sympathy for Corbyn aside, I fail to see what was wrong with what he, or the French for that matter, said. Leaving the jingoism and sabre-rattling aside it seems a fairly logical position.
May has plenty to gain from leading an international stand against Russia too.

I'd settle for even a brief considered, critical examination of the narrative, at this point to be honest, never mind proof. But as long as Sky News has everything wrapped up in whatever package best confirms our biases, then that seems to be sufficient for the vast majority.

Tories telling the truth because Russia bad. It's all so rudimentary.

I'm looking forward to the day when all the reasoned and considered analysis from the always vigilant sleuths on Ybig catch out the propagandists, whenever they actually DO try to pass off a phony prevarication of war in the media (again).

LOL


That's not a very good reply, mate. 

You need a bit more than half-assed whataboutery, obfuscation and cliches.
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Ray Houghton
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Points: 4209 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heighway2heaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 3:03pm
Yes. Because reminding people about actual incidents of UK governmental war propaganda and lies in a thread entitled 'UK Politics Thread', in respect of an incident that has possible global ramifications is whataboutery, mate Thumbs Up
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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:


I'd settle for even a brief considered, critical examination of the narrative, at this point to be honest, never mind proof. But as long as Sky News has everything wrapped up in whatever package best confirms our biases, then that seems to be sufficient for the vast majority.

Tories telling the truth because Russia bad. It's all so rudimentary.

I'm looking forward to the day when all the reasoned and considered analysis from the always vigilant sleuths on Ybig catch out the propagandists, whenever they actually DO try to pass off a phony prevarication of war in the media (again).

LOL


Okay. I'll put it to you this way. The French State, through Macron, have stated that there is no plausible alternative conclusion that can be drawn from this debacle. What are the alternative, and plausible conclusions that can be drawn? Even the Labour's Shadow Defence Secretary is taking the Government's line on this one. This has not been a particularly partisan affair, with limited dissent. People can critically think for themselves, it just happens in this case we don't need a great deal of critical thinking to reach this conclusion.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Yes. Because reminding people about actual incidents of UK governmental war propaganda and lies in a thread entitled 'UK Politics Thread', in respect of an incident that has possible global ramifications is whataboutery, mate Thumbs Up

Iraq, Libya and Syria are not relevant in this case. Russian spy has life jeopardised by Russian chemical agent, in a manner consistent with previous poisoning of Russian opponents. This is entirely different, as it very much appears that the sovereignty of the state has been jeopardised to enact reprisal on an opponent. 
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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Yes. Because reminding people about actual incidents of UK governmental war propaganda and lies in a thread entitled 'UK Politics Thread', in respect of an incident that has possible global ramifications is whataboutery, mate Thumbs Up

Your entire modus operandi appears to be: "This incident Y by the Russians didn't happen because incident X was perpetrated 15 years ago by the Brits."

There literally couldn't be a better definition of whataboutery. 
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Roy Keane
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The Tories are badly compromised as a result of donations from Russian Oligarchs. I expect a lot of fudging and bluffing over the next wee while without anything meaningful happening.

The Times ran a good piece a few days ago which illustrated just how badly compromised the British Government is. View through this prism, the response from the British Government.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-break-theresa-mays-vow-to-ban-russian-donors-glp2bl7cm
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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coyne View Drop Down
Paul McGrath
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There wont be much of the Russian Oligarchs because it was only 2 weeks ago the Labour party is funded by someone who admitted he made a leaflet about that black people carry diseases in the 60’s. Stones in glasshouses and all that.

Nor is it really a case for political point scoring, the National Security has had a breach and should be treated seriously by both benches

Edited by coyne - 15 Mar 2018 at 3:25pm
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heighway2heaven View Drop Down
Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Yes. Because reminding people about actual incidents of UK governmental war propaganda and lies in a thread entitled 'UK Politics Thread', in respect of an incident that has possible global ramifications is whataboutery, mate Thumbs Up

Your entire modus operandi appears to be: "This incident Y by the Russians didn't happen because incident X was perpetrated 15 years ago by the Brits."

There literally couldn't be a better definition of whataboutery. 

My entire modus operandi is to encourage individual analysis, rather than the blind acceptance of what's served up in the news by outlets and institutions that have a verified and documented record for deceiving the masses in to wars.

And Libya wasn't 15 years ago.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:


My entire modus operandi is to encourage individual analysis, rather than the blind acceptance of what's served up in the news by outlets and institutions that have a verified and documented record for deceiving the masses in to wars.

And Libya wasn't 15 years ago.




The fact that conclusions may be simple to reach does not make them any less valid.
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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Yes. Because reminding people about actual incidents of UK governmental war propaganda and lies in a thread entitled 'UK Politics Thread', in respect of an incident that has possible global ramifications is whataboutery, mate Thumbs Up

Your entire modus operandi appears to be: "This incident Y by the Russians didn't happen because incident X was perpetrated 15 years ago by the Brits."

There literally couldn't be a better definition of whataboutery. 

My entire modus operandi is to encourage individual analysis, rather than the blind acceptance of what's served up in the news by outlets and institutions that have a verified and documented record for deceiving the masses in to wars.

And Libya wasn't 15 years ago.



More whataboutery - which is, ironically, the exact opposite of individual analysis of an attack.

Do you agree with the analysis which says Putin is a deeply corrupt, power-obsessed, authoritarian kleptocrat who has no problem whatsoever with murdering people who are inconvenient to him?

Do you agree with the analysis that says Russia deliberately likes to leave a calling card in an attack of this nature because the whole point of such an attack is to promote terror?

Do you agree that France and Germany have now agreed with Britain that nobody else could have carried out this attack other than the Russians? 

Do you agree that Russia has a verified and documented record of deceiving the masses?

Do you agree that Russia's reaction to this attack has been deliberately provocative and insulting?

If you disagree, state your reasons for doing so.

Or can we just expect more pro-Russian whataboutery, as we got from you regarding Syria?
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heighway2heaven View Drop Down
Ray Houghton
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Points: 4209 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heighway2heaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:

Yes. Because reminding people about actual incidents of UK governmental war propaganda and lies in a thread entitled 'UK Politics Thread', in respect of an incident that has possible global ramifications is whataboutery, mate Thumbs Up

Your entire modus operandi appears to be: "This incident Y by the Russians didn't happen because incident X was perpetrated 15 years ago by the Brits."

There literally couldn't be a better definition of whataboutery. 

My entire modus operandi is to encourage individual analysis, rather than the blind acceptance of what's served up in the news by outlets and institutions that have a verified and documented record for deceiving the masses in to wars.

And Libya wasn't 15 years ago.



More whataboutery - which is, ironically, the exact opposite of individual analysis of an attack.

Do you agree with the analysis which says Putin is a deeply corrupt, power-obsessed, authoritarian kleptocrat who has no problem whatsoever with murdering people who are inconvenient to him?

Do you agree with the analysis that says Russia deliberately likes to leave a calling card in an attack of this nature because the whole point of such an attack is to promote terror?

Do you agree that France and Germany have now agreed with Britain that nobody else could have carried out this attack other than the Russians? 

Do you agree that Russia has a verified and documented record of deceiving the masses?

Do you agree that Russia's reaction to this attack has been deliberately provocative and insulting?

If you disagree, state your reasons for doing so.

Or can we just expect more pro-Russian whataboutery, as we got from you regarding Syria?



Ah, I give up there. Good luck with the blinkers. Thumbs Up
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by heighway2heaven heighway2heaven wrote:


Ah, I give up there. Good luck with the blinkers. Thumbs Up


Give up all you like. A number of posters have asked questions, something you claim we don't ask, and you are now walking away?


Edited by Het-field - 15 Mar 2018 at 3:52pm
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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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If you've
Posted 
All you've got to post
And you fear you'll end up toast
Just walk away, walk away

If you've 
Whatabouted
All you've got to whatabout
And you really want to shout
Just walk away, walk away, walk away
That's what they say, what they say, what they say
Gotta walk away
Tooo-day
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I can understand H2H's point here though. In all likelihood it is Russia, but are we really going to start a whole new series of international tensions without any proof? My own support and sympathy for Corbyn aside, I fail to see what was wrong with what he, or the French for that matter, said. Leaving the jingoism and sabre-rattling aside it seems a fairly logical position.
May has plenty to gain from leading an international stand against Russia too.

I actually think that Corbyn's job has been made more difficult by Seumas Milne's intervention, which has further split the party position. Corbyn is not wrong in suggesting that the substance should be passed. However, it is not a leap to join in the condemnation, and it would be safe for him to do so. The New Statesmen had something which suggested that this might be a hedged bet, which may backfire when Russian involvement is confirmed, as it will be manna from heaven for the Tories to criticise his efforts at managing a major foreign affairs issue. However, his statement was compromised by Milne who has gone steps further, and has yet to be reigned in.
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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 4:15pm

Cruising toward a certain victory in this Sunday’s presidential election, President Vladimir V. Putin briefly dropped his image as Russia’s tough but merciful czar to make clear that he could forgive misdeeds by wayward subjects, but “not everything.”

Asked what could not be forgiven, Mr. Putin said bluntly, “Betrayal.”
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The video of May fist bumping and high 5'ing the people in Salisbury Ermm

The whole story is the breakthrough in ratings she so badly needed. It's unlikely she'll last til 2022 but it's definitely prolonged her stay.
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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

The video of May fist bumping and high 5'ing the people in Salisbury Ermm

The whole story is the breakthrough in ratings she so badly needed. It's unlikely she'll last til 2022 but it's definitely prolonged her stay.
'Tis gas. 

Brexit was manna from heaven for the Russians.

Has Nigel Farage been asked about any of this?
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Paul McGrath
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Points: 15881 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

The video of May fist bumping and high 5'ing the people in Salisbury Ermm

The whole story is the breakthrough in ratings she so badly needed. It's unlikely she'll last til 2022 but it's definitely prolonged her stay.
Has Nigel Farage been asked about any of this?

No but he probably will be asked when he makes his 135th or so consecutive appearance on Question Time. LOL

Used to be a decent program that until they started inviting that troll on every week.
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