The Crime Thread |
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Under s. 93(2)(a)(iii) of the Children Act 2001, as amended by s. 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, a court can dispense with the requirement of anonymity if satisfied that do so is *necessary* in the public interest. That is undoubtedly a very high bar. Where there are probably two appeals coming, and the resultant possibility of a retrial or retrials, I don't see that it can be argued that it is in the public interest to know who these two boys are, where to do so could make any retrial even more difficult. In the event they are sentenced and thereafter exhaust their appeals, and are due to be released at any stage, it could then arguably be necessary in the public interest that their identity is revealed. That is the only time I can see it being close to arguable. However, given that any such release would likely involve a fair degree of probation supervision or other oversight, that argument is unlikely to be successful. After all, if they are released it can only be because the punitive element of any sentence will have been served and the primary motivation at that stage will be rehabilitation, especially if they are released under supervision or on licence ... and it is hard to see how revealing their identity at that stage would be in the public interest, seeing as it could only harm their rehabilitation. Their rehabilitation is in the public interest too, remember.
Edited by SuperDave84 - 20 Jun 2019 at 3:01pm |
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DUBLIN DOC
Jack Charlton The F The F The FAI Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Location: Abbottstown Status: Offline Points: 9155 |
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I didn’t really keep up with this case, but did the parents of one of those poxbottles not try to destroy evidence by washing clothes ? If so why were the parents not done for their part
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lassassinblanc
Paul McGrath Cheese, it’s not just for eating Joined: 27 Sep 2010 Location: Clairefontaine Status: Offline Points: 16469 |
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Dave question Could they be re trialled after the age of 18 and given an adult sentence? Or will it always be they committed the crime as underage and any re-trial and subsequent sentence take this into account
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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The mandatory minimum of life only applies for crimes committed as an adult, as far as I know. I don't know if anyone has ever been tried after they turned 18 for a crime they committed before they turned 18 and for which the mandatory sentence was life, so for that reason nothing I say is definite. There is possibly a question mark over it, if I'm honest. Anyway, as they are children, any appeal is likely to be heard quick enough. This trial was probably heard a year earlier than it would have been were they adults. I'd imagine the Court of Appeal will have heard any appeal by the end of this year.
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Denis Irwin
Robbie Keane Stay Home & watch Lethal Weapon Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Location: Ath Cliath Status: Offline Points: 37953 |
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Can the Judge impose a 'life sentence' if he wants to given the discretionary nature of the sentencing powers that he has as they're under 18 ?
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Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".
Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn |
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Yes, he can. There can be no credit for a guilty plea here, anyway. Arguably that would be better than a determinate sentence, even if it means they might be released in twenty years. A flat 30 year sentence would do no one any favours, as they would be released at the end with no oversight. What I think should happen is either a life sentence (so that when they are released, it is on licence) or alternatively a long sentence (say 30 to 40 years) with a chunk at the end suspended, say 10 years (so they can be supervised on release). Realistically, you don't want them released in their twenties or thirties but you want them to have a chance at being rehabilitated when they are released, which is why a dose of supervision of some sort is necessary.
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MC Hammered
Jack Charlton Joined: 05 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 6871 |
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Are there any studies done or stats in relation to the number of kids imprisoned for heinous offences who have been actually been rehabilitated? By that I mean that they did not offend again or end up in jail? Let's be honest, these two little kunts are fooked up and the system is not going to help them become productive well adjusted taxpayers in 10/20 years.
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El Puto Amo
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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It is very, very rare that kids commit crimes like this and rehabilitation models are different the world over, as is the definition of a "successful" outcome (got a job? crime free for five years? serious crime free for five years? does a speeding charge count against you? minor shoplifting? is the outcome influenced less by the person's personality rather than the fact they were institutionalised?), so I'm not sure there are any studies that would assist.
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MC Hammered
Jack Charlton Joined: 05 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 6871 |
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As far as I know, Jamie Bolgers killers weren't long in acting the bollox after their release. I realise that's a fairly small sample survey admittedly. These lads are going into prison starting from about as low a base as you can and it's highly unlikely that their future is going to be in any way bright and nor should it be. |
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El Puto Amo
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Well, I think one of Bolger's killers did stuff but not the other one. Venables rather than Thompson. I don't think there's been anything about Thompson having committed offences.
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The Huntacha
Roy Keane Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Location: Dubai Status: Offline Points: 12781 |
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The teenager convicted murder of the child in Palmerstown in the 70's mentioned in the article (satanic ritual) didn't re-offend but ended up working in a church in Spain apparently. The book, "The Boy in the Attic" is worth a read. One of the Bolger killers, Jon Venables, was convicted twice for possessing child porn. The other hasn't re-offended. I see someone shared the details of the supposed identity of one of the boys convicted of Ana's murder. Only for it to be the wrong person.
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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
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MC Hammered
Jack Charlton Joined: 05 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 6871 |
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Fair enough lads, I’m probably talking out of my hole.
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El Puto Amo
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horsebox
Robbie Keane Born n bred in darndale. Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 34864 |
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We don't actually know that Thompson re-offended or not. He may well have, it's just not in the public domain. |
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
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Shedite
Jack Charlton Joined: 09 Dec 2011 Status: Offline Points: 9820 |
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The following line on the rte.ie article has me thinking they may not be in prison/dentention for as long as people expect
It says any penalty imposed on a child for an offence should cause as little interference as possible with the child's "legitimate activities and pursuits" and should take the least restrictive form that is appropriate in the circumstances. In particular, it says "a period of detention should be imposed only as a measure of last resort." |
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Lenny82
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2914 |
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I read an article recently that suggested he has not re-offended and is in a happy homosexual relationship in the UK. Do you remember that Wayne O'Donoghue fella in Cork who killed his 11 year old neighbour? He was 19 at the time, did 3 years and was given a new identity. One of the rags tracked him down and he was in University in England and had a girlfriend. The family of the victim but be sickened that this guy gets anonymity and enjoys a 'normal' life. I would not be surprised if these 2 little bastards get out before they are 18 and given new identities.
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DUBLIN DOC
Jack Charlton The F The F The FAI Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Location: Abbottstown Status: Offline Points: 9155 |
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I see Mr Big has walked free, all charges against him for a tiger kidnapping was completely dropped without any explanation
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horsebox
Robbie Keane Born n bred in darndale. Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 34864 |
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He has walked free on a number of charges.
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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It really is excellent and he deserves recognition for it alright. I haven't followed the case too closely, largely due to the sensationalism and bullsh*t that surrounds cases like this (not that there are many like this), but the judge seems to deserve credit based on that article too; it seems to have been handled very well in the circumstances. I am not going to criticise the jurors, they have spent much more time considering the facts than I have, but I do have some sympathy for 'Boy B'. He comes across as immature and naive, a child that was way out of his depth and didn't know how to handle a ridiculous situation. Like all teenagers, he seemed to put far too much weighting in a personal relationship with somebody he thought was interesting or exciting. Boy A is unquestionably f**ked up, but the question is why? How does a kid get like that? It isn't heavy metal, satanism, weird porn or video games, that's for sure. If it was, there would be several cases like this every week; I would probably have been up for one or two myself. I hope that they can find out why, it might help preventing it in the future. It won't be much help to the poor Kriegels, some ordeal for them to go through. I really don't get the need or want to try and find pictures of the lads and their names. You wouldn'[t have to join to many dots to see that a sick society breeds sick children. Who's responsible, and all that.
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