A United Ireland vote?

AntrimMan wrote: That mural has now been painted over by the way.

The E wrote: AntrimMan wrote: That mural has now been painted over by the way. Really? What's there now? I stayed in the Days Inn about 2 to 3 years ago and it was still there. The taxi man said "sorry about that" as we drove by it.

The thing is, while you cannot vote no simply out a fear of retaliation and violence from the Unionist and Loyalist communities, you need to accept that, even with a nationalist majority in Northern Ireland, there would remain a sizeable minority opposed to union with Dublin, the same way there are a sizeable minority at the minute opposed to union with London. The unionist and loyalist community have, for the most part, been big enough to see that there are hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who do not and will never view themselves as Irishmen. We need to understand that there are hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who do not and possibly never will view themselves as Irishmen.

Now, there are quite a few northern unionist protestants who accept that they are a particular subset of Irish (the wealthy ones, mostly, who play rugby and cricket and would probably be willing to accept a united Ireland) but there are plenty more in the middle and lower classes who will never understand. They will view any attempt at rule from Dublin, rightly or wrongly, the same way as northern nationalists and catholics viewed rule under London and under the old Northern Ireland parliament (Craig, Brooke, Faulkner et al). The fact is, you cannot simply dismiss their concerns and some form of rapprochement would be absolutely necessary between northern unionism and southern government, and I cannot see that being quick or easy. A simply majority rule in the six counties, never mind the 32, is not going to fly at the minute.

I think it is going to take a couple of generations, until people in Northern Ireland can fully trust one another again, until all the old terrorists are dead and gone and until the hatred has subsided, before people can see their common interests as northern Irishmen and as Irishmen outweigh any allegiance they have to London and the Crown. I think, until such times as a majority of current unionists, loyalists and protestants are at least amenable to or potentially accepting of a united Ireland, asking the question is only going to foment discontent and set the cause back. In this instance, while a united Ireland in the morning would be ideal, I think the long game is the preferable course of action.

I fully accept that there are presently short term financial problems that would need to be overcome (even leaving aside any issue of national debt and whether a new united Ireland would inherit any debt from the UK) but those are not the major issue at the moment. If that was the only obstacle, I would probably vote in favour, and, in fact, if there was a referendum, I would make sure to register at my home address in the north and vote yes (knowing the vote was going to fail, of course, which it would at the minute, by about 65/35), but for the purposes of this poll I have voted no. I just don't think there is anything to be gained from holding a poll at the minute and think it would ultimately do more harm than good.

To re-iterate, I am not saying we should be afraid of potential trouble from lunatics, but that we should be aware of legitimate concerns of disenfranchisement from the protestant, unionist and loyalist people in the north, who are a majority at the minute but would be a clear minority in any united Ireland. We would only be repeating the mistakes they made, in reverse, between 1922 and 1997.

Edit: Is that better, TheEejit?


Edited by SuperDave84 - 03 Dec 2013 at 1:24pm

SuperDave.. Do you have an enter button on your keyboard?

Flanno7hi wrote: Sligo Hornet wrote: Flanno7hi wrote: I voted yes. I can't see how anyone can call themselves an Irish republican and foresake their countryman to rule by a foreign power.   People are claiming economic reasons for me that just shows the sad state of modern Ireland. I'd give up everything for a United Ireland     including your freedom?..........Not beyond reason (although unlikely) to think that at some stage in the future the island of Ireland may be under the full control of another nation.....eg  China (not all the Chinese are a great bunch of lads)...who knows , the capital city could be renamed Foo Kin Fleg Sorry I didn't think I'd need to specify. I meant a free united Ireland run by the people of Ireland and not a colonial power.

AntrimMan wrote: The Huntacha wrote: AntrimMan wrote: The Huntacha wrote: Out of curiosity what's the social welfare rate up North or in the UK?   Think the dole is 56 quid a week. It might be more for over 25's but they might have done away with that. Not 100% sure Jesus if you went from that to €188 a week it'd be like winning the lotto    Yup. And the cost of living up here, belfast in particular, is starting to feckin resemble that of Dublin.

Yes, except there are plenty of other benefits you can get in the UK too. Disability living allowance is far easier to get up there than the similar one is down here, they get tax credits in the form of actual money direct to the bank account, rent supplement etc is better, it's a hell of a lot easier to get a public house (the lists are shorter and the housing more plentiful), etc etc, so while the dole itself is a lot lower, those who need cash can actually get it. The dole down here is generous, no doubt, especially for lads living at home who spend over half of it on fags, cans and weed, but there are other benefits in the north and a simple comparison on weekly figures for unemployment benefit is not entirely accurate.

The E wrote: SuperDave.. Do you have an enter button on your keyboard?

SuperDave84 wrote: AntrimMan wrote: The Huntacha wrote: AntrimMan wrote: The Huntacha wrote: Out of curiosity what's the social welfare rate up North or in the UK?   Think the dole is 56 quid a week. It might be more for over 25's but they might have done away with that. Not 100% sure Jesus if you went from that to €188 a week it'd be like winning the lotto    Yup. And the cost of living up here, belfast in particular, is starting to feckin resemble that of Dublin. Yes, except there are plenty of other benefits you can get in the UK too. Disability living allowance is far easier to get up there than the similar one is down here, they get tax credits in the form of actual money direct to the bank account, rent supplement etc is better, it's a hell of a lot easier to get a public house (the lists are shorter and the housing more plentiful), etc etc, so while the dole itself is a lot lower, those who need cash can actually get it. The dole down here is generous, no doubt, especially for lads living at home who spend over half of it on fags, cans and weed, but there are other benefits in the north and a simple comparison on weekly figures for unemployment benefit is not entirely accurate.

The E wrote: I'm honestly not a troll. It's just an interesting debate Flanno and I would genuinely vote no.  I'm a proud republican Irishman but I feel the ship as sailed for the 6 counties to come under the Irish government. The people of the 6 counties are Irish anyway and can hold Irish passports. AntrimMan is as Irish as me or a chap in Kerry.  I just believe there'd be a civil war if a 'Yes vote' was passed. Look at the uproar Unionists caused over a flag flying in City Hall. Could you imagine what would happen if they were forced to be part of an Irish Republic? There'd be blood on the streets and we'd be back to the troubles. I'm not prepared to take the risk for that to happen. I'm not prepared for my country to be in the world news for all the wrong reasons again.  There's also the financial burden that I don't think the Irish government would be able to handle taking on the 6 counties. A lot of jobs in the north are through the UK government. What would happen the Irish people in the North if they became part of the Republic? Like it or not but there'd be mass unemployment.  In the ideal world all 32 counties would be under the one government but unfortunately it's not that way but I think people need to take off their rose tinted glasses. The negatives of a United Ireland far outweigh the positives.

You're obviously not as you wouldnt vote yes on a 32 county Republic. This is the central element of being an Irish republican so if you don't support this you aren't a republican.


Edited by Fintan - 03 Dec 2013 at 1:31pm