'New York style' Zero Tolerence.Wouldit work here? |
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 25087 |
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Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 7:32pm |
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Good post Hoosay.I do think people can fall into the trap of revisionism when it comes to zero tolerence.In football terms we've a revisionist mindset that if Jack Charlton played a passing game we'd have won the world cup.It wasn't zero tolerence there was a drop in crime anyway.When people like ourselves look at things retrospectively, there's always going to be a chance of inaccuracies.My cousins lived there at this time and seen it first hand, but then when they were relaying their experiences to me there's always the risk of exaggeration. What I do think is definite is there was a change in philosophy in New York which was supposed to have been a very dangerous city before Bratton implemented his changes.There was certainly not the police presence back then as there is now |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Hoosay
Ray Houghton Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3933 |
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Yes it's a policy of prosecuting all offences no matter how trivial and applying the punishment consistently, not necessarily harsher punishments just no letting people off smaller things. There's no absolute proof that it works, crime did drop in NY during the zero tolerance period, but crime had been dropping before that, and crime dropped across the US over the same period including in cities that didn't have a similar policy. As someone mentioned there is a theory, I think it comes from superfreakonomics, that the drop in crime in NY also corresponds 20 or so year anniversary of abortion legalisation. Ultimately though I reckon SuperDave is right, it doesn't matter what your prosecution policy is, if you have more police on the streets doing actual police work, crime will drop. NY hired more police, crime rates fell, arguably they would have fallen without the zero tolerance policy with the police numbers they had.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 25087 |
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As long as we're friends on ybig |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32783 |
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Said it earlier there will be many posts I make which have mistakes both in the context of spelling and grammar. That is why I used the words consistent. Everybody makes typos especially on forums.
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AKA pedantic kunt
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eire77
Ray Houghton Joined: 08 May 2012 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2993 |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me...
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32783 |
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I am glad muf is not a friend on facebook
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AKA pedantic kunt
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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There's actually two "alot"s in that post. The other is three words in.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32783 |
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You use the term "alot" (sic) a lot on here, did not take much to spot it, its in many of your posts.
Edited by Baldrick - 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm |
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eire77
Ray Houghton Joined: 08 May 2012 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2993 |
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Are ye sure that zero tolerance is tougher punishment for first time offenders? I was under the impression that it was more to do with prosecuting ALL offences no matter how minor or trivial.
I'm a massive fan of the "3 strikes and you're out" policy. I think courts can, and often should, be lenient on first time offenders. Anyone can make a mistake or be in a difficult situation and make the incorrect decision. Once you use your first chance and move into two or three offences the book should be thrown at you. This crap of lads with 60 or 70 convictions is absolute lunacy. Edited by eire77 - 01 Oct 2013 at 5:26pm |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me...
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 25087 |
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I actually studied English Literature for 3 years in college. nice spot ya cxxt |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32783 |
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ahem
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 25087 |
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Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32783 |
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Yeah I read somewhere that this was a by product of what happened in Manhattan. Not sure how true it is. Kinda like cleaning up Dublin at the expense of Meath.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 25087 |
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Good post SD.Ireland imo is still a pretty conservative country.Id imagine you may have trouble implementing these logical changes in terms of de-criminalising/legalising drugs for personal use as to be passed as a law.Definitely agree with ya on reducing sentences on non-violent crimes. Overall the need for more of a police presence in personnel terms and on the beat is the main point. |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 25087 |
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That sounds like hocus pocus tbh.Im only going by what my cousins said who lived there but it was certainly a policy of hands on policing in all areas to combat it.I could be wrong though.The abortion thing may have helped but I doubt it was a substantial factor tbh |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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The scenario isn't that different. Crime was a lot worse in the US back then though. First thing I would do is re-open Templemore and hire a load of gardai. From my own interaction with the guards, a lot of the paperwork is done by Sergeants rather than rank and file Gardai, who are left a lot more free to do actual policing. I would make sure no Garda is in court unless they need to be and make sure the majority of court work is done by Sergeants with the arresting Garda only showing up if the matter is definitely going on for hearing. I would have loads more Gardai stationed in trouble areas and out on the beat, rather than in their cars. In terms of paying for it, I would reduce prison sentences for non-violent offenders and increase spending on drug treatment and addiction courses. A lot of that is done by voluntary organisations and that's not really on. I wouldn't necessarily reduce spending in prisons but I would probably introduce a rule banning tvs in cells (not sure if they have them at the minute, I think they do) and spend the money on education and books and such. I would also try and eliminate the mandatory minimum sentences for drug dealing over a certain amount, but only where the person caught does not own the drugs (that is, where they are mules) which should reduce prison costs. While ideally I would legalise possession of just about every drug where it is for personal use (it is working brilliantly in Portugal in lowering addiction rates) I would continue to hammer dealers where possible. There's no guarantee any of this would work. However, I don't think it would make things worse and it might improve things. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. |
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Mr Marbles
Liam Brady Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1739 |
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There is a theory that the reason crime dropped at this time was due to abortion being made legal in New York two decades or so before and had little or nothing to do with police policy
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