'New York style' Zero Tolerence.Wouldit work here?
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Topic: 'New York style' Zero Tolerence.Wouldit work here?
Posted By: irishmufc
Subject: 'New York style' Zero Tolerence.Wouldit work here?
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 2:59pm
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I had two cousins that lived in New York from the late 80s to the early 00s.They seen the benefit of zero tolerence adopted from the Broken Windows Theory principle that if you tolerate minor public offences than you'll tolerate bigger ones.The idea was to hit the first time offender hard.I know New York is an extreme example as the city was going down the toilet with the high level of crime it had previous to this.Giuliani is most associated with cleaning up New York which is a common myth.I remember the cousin telling me this William Bratton NYPD head honcho was central in cleaning up the city to make it the safe 'cop on every block' city it is today.It cost alot of money and man power to do this but it worked.New Yorks crime rate dropped over 60% (63% exactly) within a number of years. In regards to Ireland with people having 60/70 previous convictions like in Britain (Asbo's).Clearly the justice system doesn't work.I wonder how feasible could we implement a system that nails first time offenders in such a way that they're less likely to do so again.Whether that means more jail time,heavier fines,I don't know. I can understand peoples anger but you cant have a mob rule society where 300 people can congregate outside a police station in Athlone.There is due process no matter how much of a scumbag this guy is.Id like a serious discussion without the "he should have a hole in the ground to sh*t in", "his balls should be cut off".You cant go brutalizing/torturing criminals when they're in prison.They'll come out worse.It gives me an uneasy feeling when you see peoples nasty reactions to an horrific crime which is understandable as some people on here have kids but the paedophile crime is a different issue to this. My own belief is prison has to be a place you do not want to go back to.A balance between punishment and rehabilitation is needed.I do think there are alot of privilages that could be taken away but things like education,access to reading books,having prisoners out under armed guard doing basic county/urban council duties emptying bins,basic labouring on roads,comminity service.It would be of benefit to prisoners and cut down maybe on overtime the county council workers would usually do.I don't know how feasible a military school/boot camp type of facility for young offenders could be introduced that may be more effective in cutting down their chances of repeating offences. Obviously there's a social factor that needs to be addressed when people are from broken homes and rough estates in major cities.Hopefully urban renewal and gentrification will help alleviate this as a cause of why people commit crimes. Anyone that goes to on Ireland aways,Spain on holidays, United States,etc etc .There is a respect for the police and if you act the prick abroad you'll be rightfully punished.A Polish lad I spoke to was stunned of how there is a lack of respect for the authorities over here.He couldn't believe how soft the police were in comparison to Poland. Any ideas how we could implement a zero tolerence on 1. young/first time offenders 2. repeat/ adult offenders 3. the legal implications/ possible human rights/E.U. violations on introducing chemical castration on convicted paedophile sex offenders ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Replies:
Posted By: SuperDave84
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:05pm
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It works provided you have increased detection, prosecution and conviction rates. The biggest problem in Ireland at the minute is the detection and prosecution rates. Just about everyone charged with a minor crime is convicted. There are very, very few people who are caught who get away on technicalities. The biggest problem is the shrinking size of the Garda Siochana, not the conviction of people charged with crimes. That certainly doesn't help. If criminals think they'll get away with it, they have no problem committing the crime. If they think they'll get caught (regardless of the punishment, more or less) they are a lot less likely to commit the crime. ------------- 
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Posted By: SuperDave84
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:09pm
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Basically, things like heavier fines and longer sentences for first time offenders don't make much difference. Put it like this: if you have a good chance of getting away with it, prospective sentences have little effect. That's why catching criminals is more important than punishing them. -------------
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Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:14pm
Ok SD i know your theory but we'll say you are the Minister for Justice as of now.Could you provide an example of the type of framework you would implement? Is there anything we could adopt from the New York example or is it just too much of a different scenario to really take anything from.At the moment people are repeating offences whether they're minor or adults.Is it really simply a case of not enough Police being about or is there any other factor you could introduce? Anyone ever in New York,you cant walk two feet without seeing some type of police presence.I never see any police when lads are beating the heads of each other outside the local take away.Would arming the police or certain specific changes in criminal law that you'd be familiar with work? ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
SuperDave84 wrote:Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:15pm
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Or is it simply just increasing the chances of being caught the overriding factor? ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Tippbiffo
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:38pm
| When the guards are doing their job and when they have to get heavy handed with scum who are fighting on the street or acting the gobsh*te thereis always someone complaining that the guards are enforcing police brutality. There is no respect for the law in Ireland. There is no fear of the justice system. There is not enough prisons. Scum will always float to the top of freedom in irish society. It stems from lack of respect for elders and teachers. A good kick in the hole when a kid is going down the wrong track might save millions in the long run. |
Posted By: coleman's
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:38pm
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New York definitely has zero tolerance. I got arrested on a J1 over there for hopping a subway turnstile when locked. Supposedly it's a fine and the cop's were completely in the wrong. Ended up in holding cells (which had sh*t marks on their ceilings) overnight for about 16 hours and facing a Judge Judy style courtroom the next day! Didn't end up on my "record" though, and with the limited finances I had at the time probably worked out best in the end. Worked anyway cause I paid for my subways from there on out!
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Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:41pm
Proper order.I know it seems a bit harsh but you know yourself you were in the wrong and you won't do it again. ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 3:44pm
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Ireland used to have a Zero Tolerence system in place, it was known as the Industrial School and Mental Hospital system. ------------- " BFC always gives me a laugh........ " |
Posted By: RogerMilla
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:00pm
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in freakonomics their theory is that zero tolerance did not make all that much difference.
there were other factors for the reduction of crime.
------------- The first time the Devil made me do it. The second time I did it on my own. |
Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:07pm
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Is it true that all they did was dump all the criminals in to New Jersey. Not sure where I heard that, but that was a suggestion I read somewhere. Is there any truth to that. ------------- AKA pedantic kunt |
Posted By: Tippbiffo
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:09pm
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Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:11pm
Sorry Tipp - just a failed attempt at humour on a miserable day.......... ------------- " BFC always gives me a laugh........ " |
Posted By: Tippbiffo
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:17pm
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Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:17pm
might improve for ya if Stokes puts the Catalans to the sword  ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:22pm
. You've been watching too many Sopranos episodes  .Joking aside New Jersey has some pretty rough areas.There s one place called Camden (I think) thats meant to be the roughest town/small city in the U.S. ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Mr Marbles
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:51pm
| There is a theory that the reason crime dropped at this time was due to abortion being made legal in New York two decades or so before and had little or nothing to do with police policy |
Posted By: SuperDave84
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:57pm
The scenario isn't that different. Crime was a lot worse in the US back then though. First thing I would do is re-open Templemore and hire a load of gardai. From my own interaction with the guards, a lot of the paperwork is done by Sergeants rather than rank and file Gardai, who are left a lot more free to do actual policing. I would make sure no Garda is in court unless they need to be and make sure the majority of court work is done by Sergeants with the arresting Garda only showing up if the matter is definitely going on for hearing. I would have loads more Gardai stationed in trouble areas and out on the beat, rather than in their cars. In terms of paying for it, I would reduce prison sentences for non-violent offenders and increase spending on drug treatment and addiction courses. A lot of that is done by voluntary organisations and that's not really on. I wouldn't necessarily reduce spending in prisons but I would probably introduce a rule banning tvs in cells (not sure if they have them at the minute, I think they do) and spend the money on education and books and such. I would also try and eliminate the mandatory minimum sentences for drug dealing over a certain amount, but only where the person caught does not own the drugs (that is, where they are mules) which should reduce prison costs. While ideally I would legalise possession of just about every drug where it is for personal use (it is working brilliantly in Portugal in lowering addiction rates) I would continue to hammer dealers where possible. There's no guarantee any of this would work. However, I don't think it would make things worse and it might improve things. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. -------------
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Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:00pm
That sounds like hocus pocus tbh.Im only going by what my cousins said who lived there but it was certainly a policy of hands on policing in all areas to combat it.I could be wrong though.The abortion thing may have helped but I doubt it was a substantial factor tbh ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: SuperDave84
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:06pm
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There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough. -------------
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Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:08pm
Good post SD.Ireland imo is still a pretty conservative country.Id imagine you may have trouble implementing these logical changes in terms of de-criminalising/legalising drugs for personal use as to be passed as a law.Definitely agree with ya on reducing sentences on non-violent crimes. Overall the need for more of a police presence in personnel terms and on the beat is the main point. ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:11pm
Yeah I read somewhere that this was a by product of what happened in Manhattan. Not sure how true it is. Kinda like cleaning up Dublin at the expense of Meath. ------------- AKA pedantic kunt |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:16pm
Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:17pm
ahem ------------- AKA pedantic kunt |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:23pm
 I actually studied English Literature for 3 years in college.  nice spot ya cxxt ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: eire77
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
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Are ye sure that zero tolerance is tougher punishment for first time offenders? I was under the impression that it was more to do with prosecuting ALL offences no matter how minor or trivial. I'm a massive fan of the "3 strikes and you're out" policy. I think courts can, and often should, be lenient on first time offenders. Anyone can make a mistake or be in a difficult situation and make the incorrect decision. Once you use your first chance and move into two or three offences the book should be thrown at you. This crap of lads with 60 or 70 convictions is absolute lunacy. ------------- Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me... |
Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
You use the term "alot" (sic) a lot on here, did not take much to spot it, its in many of your posts.
------------- AKA pedantic kunt |
Posted By: SuperDave84
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
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There's actually two "alot"s in that post. The other is three words in. -------------
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Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:26pm
I am glad muf is not a friend on facebook ------------- AKA pedantic kunt |
Posted By: eire77
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:36pm
------------- Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me... |
Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:38pm
Said it earlier there will be many posts I make which have mistakes both in the context of spelling and grammar. That is why I used the words consistent. Everybody makes typos especially on forums. ------------- AKA pedantic kunt |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 6:11pm
As long as we're friends on ybig  ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Hoosay
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 6:23pm
Yes it's a policy of prosecuting all offences no matter how trivial and applying the punishment consistently, not necessarily harsher punishments just no letting people off smaller things. There's no absolute proof that it works, crime did drop in NY during the zero tolerance period, but crime had been dropping before that, and crime dropped across the US over the same period including in cities that didn't have a similar policy. As someone mentioned there is a theory, I think it comes from superfreakonomics, that the drop in crime in NY also corresponds 20 or so year anniversary of abortion legalisation. Ultimately though I reckon SuperDave is right, it doesn't matter what your prosecution policy is, if you have more police on the streets doing actual police work, crime will drop. NY hired more police, crime rates fell, arguably they would have fallen without the zero tolerance policy with the police numbers they had.
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Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 7:32pm
Good post Hoosay.I do think people can fall into the trap of revisionism when it comes to zero tolerence.In football terms we've a revisionist mindset that if Jack Charlton played a passing game we'd have won the world cup.It wasn't zero tolerence there was a drop in crime anyway.When people like ourselves look at things retrospectively, there's always going to be a chance of inaccuracies.My cousins lived there at this time and seen it first hand, but then when they were relaying their experiences to me there's always the risk of exaggeration. What I do think is definite is there was a change in philosophy in New York which was supposed to have been a very dangerous city before Bratton implemented his changes.There was certainly not the police presence back then as there is now ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |