Martin O'Neill...

However we have got good results now for a while under o Neill playing poorly many times so he is going against that theory.


Who cares how he does it as long as he does.

And it has happened too many times

Edited by Baldrick - 18 Oct 2017 at 8:39pm

Saint Tom wrote: planning wrote: I don't wind people up. I tell them the truth and they don't like it. Not my problem. planning is miles (or kilometers) ahead of us all lads. That's just how it is

Baldrick wrote: However we have got good results now for a while under o Neill playing poorly many times so he is going against that theory.

Well we have had one or two good results and a few bad results and relying on luck to bail us out. He has had a ridiculous amount of luck go his way to date.  Definitely more than your fair share.

The only metric is results whether that's by hook or by crook or by luck or whatever.

I think you would prefer his luck to run out so you could be proven right in your head

planning wrote: Lenny82 wrote: That Italian 11 would walk in to any Irish team and they were all trying to play for a place in their National team. None of that Italian team would get into our team. Besides the fact they are all ineligible, they were also crap, every one of them that played in Lille without exception, was absolutely crap. They played that game because their betters having already won them the group, (amazing actually winning a group!!!) were given a few days more rest before beating the then European Champions. Beating the Italian B side in the last 5 minutes led to wild celebrations. Sadly, we were already on our way home before that next Italy game even took place.

BriMurt wrote: Trap junior wrote: Baldrick wrote: The only stat that matters in football is thr final score. True but the scoreline can be just a fluke masking the performance.  Good performances generally lead to good results.  But keep performing poorly over and over and getting consistently good results will not go hand in hand. You will get lucky now and again.   Our possession stats have regressed under MON I'd wager.  I am in no doubt that the success he has gotten with us is more changes in circumstantial luck than any improvement in performances. Agree with the first paragraph. I think the, what you might call 'great', Irish defensive performances of recent years have been characterised by a lot of determination and grit, but it's never that confident defending where you're dispossessing your opponents before they get into the box, and limiting them to wild shots from range. I guarantee that, against decent to great opposition, a solid Irish defensive performance will still allow about 3 good chances to the opposition. A poor Irish defensive performance will afford about the same. The difference being whether the opposition takes them or not.  But the team's performance has definitely improved under MoN vs. Trap, overall. Trapattoni steadied the ship after the ghastly Staunton years, but it became clear after a point that Trap had not placed a glass ceiling above the team, but a bulletproof perspex one. Absolutely no intention of changing the system or the personnel. This sapped the team's, and our, belief, and you can't expect any growth of success, or even a sustained level of success in those conditions.

Austria v Ireland  2013 v 2016

2016   
Possession     Austria 65%  Ireland 35%
Shots              Austria   17   Ireland 8
On Target       Austria    6     Ireland   2
Corners          Austria    6     Ireland   6

2013:
Possession    Austria 55%   Ireland 45%
Shots             Austria  21     Ireland  9
On Target      Austria   7      Ireland  0
Corners         Austria   11    Ireland  2


Again the stats are fairly similar bar the possession. In 2013 was 10% more possession but we had more corners in 2016.  However we had the similar attempts on goal. 9 in 2013 and 8 in 2016. 2 were on target in 2016. None in 2013.

Again I don't see much difference bar the scoreline which can be decided by a bad decision or just taking your only chance.  

Again I was at both games.

If anything our stats are regressing in some areas. Particularly possession.  We had 30% versus Georgia this year and Moldova dominated us in the 2nd half in possession. In Wales we had 29% possession. 


Possession  Wales 71%    Ireland 29%
Shots         Wales   16     Ireland   9
On target    Wales   4      Ireland   2
Corners       Wales   10    Ireland    2


Now I don't know how he is managing to come away from these games with victories.  It's not like we have clinical strikers who only need 1 chance.   But we seems to be taking our only chances in games.  Somehow.   That is not sustainable. 

planning wrote: I don't wind people up. I tell them the truth and they don't like it. Not my problem.

Edited by rolo - 18 Oct 2017 at 9:22pm

Strazdas wrote: BriMurt wrote: Trap junior wrote: Baldrick wrote: The only stat that matters in football is thr final score. True but the scoreline can be just a fluke masking the performance.  Good performances generally lead to good results.  But keep performing poorly over and over and getting consistently good results will not go hand in hand. You will get lucky now and again.   Our possession stats have regressed under MON I'd wager.  I am in no doubt that the success he has gotten with us is more changes in circumstantial luck than any improvement in performances. Agree with the first paragraph. I think the, what you might call 'great', Irish defensive performances of recent years have been characterised by a lot of determination and grit, but it's never that confident defending where you're dispossessing your opponents before they get into the box, and limiting them to wild shots from range. I guarantee that, against decent to great opposition, a solid Irish defensive performance will still allow about 3 good chances to the opposition. A poor Irish defensive performance will afford about the same. The difference being whether the opposition takes them or not.  But the team's performance has definitely improved under MoN vs. Trap, overall. Trapattoni steadied the ship after the ghastly Staunton years, but it became clear after a point that Trap had not placed a glass ceiling above the team, but a bulletproof perspex one. Absolutely no intention of changing the system or the personnel. This sapped the team's, and our, belief, and you can't expect any growth of success, or even a sustained level of success in those conditions.  Trap's system was extremely rigid and essentially defensive minded. It meant we didn't lose many games but didn't win many either against good opposition. It worked up to a point and nearly took us to a WC as well as a Euros, but was found out a bit in Poland. MON is more fluid and willing to experiment and change which probably accounts for the quality of our performances going up and down under him. We can be really good on our day but put in below par performances as well.

I've no problem with what you say about the rigidity. But had MON been the manager in 2012 the results would have been the same.  I do not believ the quality of our performances have gone up at all.  Whats happened is we have gotten better results in certain games and peoples perception of the game is skewed because if the scoreline.  I believe we play less football now that under Trap. For instance the wales game last week was a horrible performance. Had that finished 0-0 which would have been a fair result do you think people would have been looking at the tactics and football we played in a different light?  Nobody on here was criticising the football the days after yet it would have been outrage had it finished 0-0.  That's the change in perception one kick of the ball into a net can do.

You can't keep playing the way we are and getting away with it.