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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Terri likes to argue that much he's now arguing with himself.
Yeah, well arguing with you is no challenge, that's for sure! LOL

But I'm a reasonable man, so I'll indulge you once more and ask: where have I contradicted myself?

P.S. No hurry btw - no doubt you're busy preparing an irrefutable, evidence-based fact file to back up your assertions that Sissoko is "lazy" and Dier is "sh*te". Yeah, that'll be it.

A fella on talksport today (can’t remember who) was saying mainly only black players are labelled as lazy 
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

I'm not convinced you're a reasonable man, a reasonable man doesn't argue with himself let's get that straight Thumbs Up
I repeat, where have I contradicted myself?

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

And a reasonable man would tell the thread why you think Dier is a good player without arguing with yourself or posting some irrelevant stats regarding appearances, what I'm trying to say is... Just answer the f**king question LOL

Dier offers a different physical presence to most of Spurs other players, who are mostly on the small side. He's extremely fit and athletic, and is rarely injured.

Contrary to what some bucketmouths seem to think, he's actually very tactically and positionally aware. For example, I've noticed that Spurs will occasionally switch mid-game from four at the back to three, with the two FB's sent forward to play Wing Back. To achieve that, it requires Dier to switch position to play on the right of the 3.

He's also very good at patrolling his given area of the pitch, usually the centre, where he cuts off the passing lanes for the opposition midfield. However recently, since Sissoko has been moved to centre mid, Dier has often taken up a position on the left or right, depending on who else is on the pitch. Probably the best example recently was when Spurs mullered* Chelsea, and Dier, Sissoko and Eriksen protected (the ring rusty) Alderweireld and (the inexperienced) Foytt from the runs of Willian and Kante, even Hazard (for most of the game, at any rate). 

On top of which, he's much better than the average midfielder at defending set pieces, as well as being a threat at attacking set plays.

When you add in his consistency, the fact that he seems to get on well with his teammates, has no apparent ego, must be a good trainer and isn't seen falling out of night clubs at 4 am, then you can see why respected managers like Poch, Hodgson and Southgate want him in their team.

Oh, and there's his stats. You know, evidence, facts, that sort of thing. Not that you appear to have any of your own, just opinions that sound something like Katie Hopkins would come out with, were she given a guest spot on TalkSport. LOL


* - Really should have been 5-1 or 6-1 to Spurs. At least.
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

I'm not convinced you're a reasonable man, a reasonable man doesn't argue with himself let's get that straight Thumbs Up
I repeat, where have I contradicted myself?

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

And a reasonable man would tell the thread why you think Dier is a good player without arguing with yourself or posting some irrelevant stats regarding appearances, what I'm trying to say is... Just answer the f**king question LOL

Dier offers a different physical presence to most of Spurs other players, who are mostly on the small side. He's extremely fit and athletic, and is rarely injured. - Fair play to you. You finally offered some positive football traits you believe Dier has. It has taken endless posts and thousands of words, but you at least now have gotten to some semblance of an argument starting point. Well you would have, if you hadn't basically stolen word for word those positive traits of Diers from my numerous previous posts. Have you seen Dier play, or are you just reading my posts, keeping the positive bits and forgetting my negative comments?

Contrary to what some bucketmouths seem to think, he's actually very tactically and positionally aware. For example, I've noticed that Spurs will occasionally switch mid-game from four at the back to three, with the two FB's sent forward to play Wing Back. To achieve that, it requires Dier to switch position to play on the right of the 3. - this is correct. Spurs have regularly switched between 2 and 3 CBs in games during the past few years. This is no Einstein revelation though, any barstooler would spot this. Dier is as poor as a CB as he is at holding CM. See Dier again caught out sleeping vs Man United at OT last season for the winning goal. It's a regular occurrence no matter where he plays and his most common trait as a player.

He's also very good at patrolling his given area of the pitch, usually the centre, where he cuts off the passing lanes for the opposition midfield. However recently, since Sissoko has been moved to centre mid, Dier has often taken up a position on the left or right, depending on who else is on the pitch. Probably the best example recently was when Spurs mullered* Chelsea, and Dier, Sissoko and Eriksen protected (the ring rusty) Alderweireld and (the inexperienced) Foytt from the runs of Willian and Kante, even Hazard (for most of the game, at any rate). - Dier is literally light years behind Wanyama as a midfielder. In every single facet of play. The reason I believe that Wanyama isn't Pochettinos go to man in this area yet is simply because Dier seems to always be fit, Wanyama seems to always have niggly injuries and not be fully fit. It cannot be underestimated how much stock a manager puts in having a player he can trust to always be available and an option for every game.

On top of which, he's much better than the average midfielder at defending set pieces, as well as being a threat at attacking set plays. - I would agree here. His physical presence is a big plus in Pochettinos eyes.

When you add in his consistency, the fact that he seems to get on well with his teammates, has no apparent ego, must be a good trainer and isn't seen falling out of night clubs at 4 am, then you can see why respected managers like Poch, Hodgson and Southgate want him in their team. - Would agree with all of that from what I've read or not read about Dier, more to the point. The thing is, all of these things do not make you a top level footballer, and Dier simply is not that. He has not got the brains, the awareness, or the footballing ability to be a top level player.

Oh, and there's his stats. You know, evidence, facts, that sort of thing. Not that you appear to have any of your own, just opinions that sound something like Katie Hopkins would come out with, were she given a guest spot on TalkSport. LOL - interesting that you bring Katie into it. I see that same vacant, bimbo like look in Diers eyes as he wanders way out of position in CM for Spurs as I've often seen in Katies eyes when she goes on some nonsensical rant. Good spot Terri Clap


* - Really should have been 5-1 or 6-1 to Spurs. At least.
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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"Literally light years"


.....right
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

 Fair play to you. You finally offered some positive football traits you believe Dier has. It has taken endless posts and thousands of words, but you at least now have gotten to some semblance of an argument starting point. Well you would have, if you hadn't basically stolen word for word those positive traits of Diers from my numerous previous posts. Have you seen Dier play, or are you just reading my posts, keeping the positive bits and forgetting my negative comments?
Er, you were the one who started this whole thing by asserting, that Dier was "absolutely abysmal" etc. Therefore the onus was on you to provide the evidence. Which you haven't really done, since merely sl*gging someone off with wild opinionated claims doesn't cut it.



P.S. I guarantee I've seen Spurs play more than you, both Live and on TV, over the last 3 decades.

(Oh and don't flatter yourself about where I get my own opinions, thanks very much)

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Spurs have regularly switched between 2 and 3 CBs in games during the past few years. This is no Einstein revelation though, any barstooler would spot this. Dier is as poor as a CB as he is at holding CM. See Dier again caught out sleeping vs Man United at OT last season for the winning goal. It's a regular occurrence no matter where he plays and his most common trait as a player.
Specious.
I never claimed that Dier is a top CB. He rarely plays CB. Rather we are discussing Dier the DM. 

On which point, it was I who pointed out that one of the first things Poch did after he took over was to convert Dier in his 2nd season to DM. Which in turn was one of the reasons why Spurs' defensive stats went from some of the poorest in the EPL to the top two or three.
And why Poch has been happy to pick him in that position for 200-odd games, also Hodgson/Southgate 38 times for England.
All this despite it being "blatantly obvious" that he is "absolutely abysmal", "horrendous", "appalling" "not smart enough", a "glaring weak spot" and "one of the poorest, dumbest footballers" you've* ever seen...

P.S. You spotted a Dier error. Well done. Like no other player has ever made an error. Then again, maybe you've never heard of Hugo Lloris. Or haven't seen Trippier play this season. Or overlooked the absolute sitter missed by Kane vs Chelsea....


* - Well they were your words, after all.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Dier is literally light years behind Wanyama as a midfielder. In every single facet of play. The reason I believe that Wanyama isn't Pochettinos go to man in this area yet is simply because Dier seems to always be fit, Wanyama seems to always have niggly injuries and not be fully fit. It cannot be underestimated how much stock a manager puts in having a player he can trust to always be available and an option for every game.
That first sentence sums your whole argument up. LOL

Anyhow, you are suggesting that Poch wouldn't pick Dier if he had Wanyama available, yet once again the stats disprove that.

In 2017/18, Wanyama missed the first half of the season through injury. He made his comeback on 02 Jan vs Swansea and was fit enough to play 22 games for Spurs by the end of the season.
Dier played alongside him in 16 of those games. But what is more pertinent is that amongst the games Dier missed were in the FA Cup vs Wimbledon or Newport, or EPL games vs Brighton, WBA and Newcastle i.e. the weakest opposition.
By contrast, Dier played at home to Juventus and away to Man City while Wanyama sat them out.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

 [Dier] has not got the brains, the awareness, or the footballing ability to be a top level player.
Then he must be some bluffer to have got away with 250 games at the top level, EPL, CL, WC and EC over the last 5 years then.

Isn't it amazing how you can see this, but no-one else could?

But thank you for putting us all right. LOL




Edited by Territorial - 11 Dec 2018 at 2:04pm
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Terri, for god knows how many times in a row now, the main basis of your argument is that Pochettino, Hodgson Southgate regularly select Dier. It's not even a point worth arguing tbh. It's just moronic. On that basis, no person lower down the football ladder than managers at a certain level can question anything they do. You had lost this argument about Dier before you had even begun by continually using this nonsense as your main point. I'll give you one of what could be thousands of examples to counter such an argument.

Chris Smalling - awful footballer at the highest level. A Man United player for close to a decade now. Has made 300 plus appearances for the club. Has played under Fergie, Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho. Not a bad list of managers eh. Played for England under numerous managers before Gareth Southgate basically said this guy can't pass the ball from the back. How well Southgates decision wasn't determined by the fact that Smalling had accumulated hundreds of games at United under what would be described as some of the greatest managers in the past few decades of football. How could Southgate possibly do that when the stack of evidence of how good Smalling is from all those great managers is huge. It just doesn't add up does it?
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Terri, for god knows how many times in a row now, the main basis of your argument is that Pochettino, Hodgson Southgate regularly select Dier. It's not even a point worth arguing tbh. It's just moronic. On that basis, no person lower down the football ladder than managers at a certain level can question anything they do. You had lost this argument about Dier before you had even begun by continually using this nonsense as your main point. I'll give you one of what could be thousands of examples to counter such an argument.
You said quite unequivocally that:
 "[Dier] has not got the brains, the awareness, or the footballing ability to be a top level player."

If that is so, then why do so many infinitely better qualified judges than you disagree, so consistently and for so long? 

What makes you so sure you know better than them, and can see things they can't?

And why hasn't Dier been found out? 

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Chris Smalling - awful footballer at the highest level. A Man United player for close to a decade now. Has made 300 plus appearances for the club. Has played under Fergie, Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho. Not a bad list of managers eh. Played for England under numerous managers before Gareth Southgate basically said this guy can't pass the ball from the back. How well Southgates decision wasn't determined by the fact that Smalling had accumulated hundreds of games at United under what would be described as some of the greatest managers in the past few decades of football. How could Southgate possibly do that when the stack of evidence of how good Smalling is from all those great managers is huge. It just doesn't add up does it?
I didn't think we were discussing Smalling, a player I don't profess to know too much about.

But I'll see your Smalling and give you my Harry Maguire - a player whom many people dismissed as a donkey, while he was playing in League One and the Championship.

Then I'll raise you Gareth Barry - a player who for years was derided as being slow, unskilful and a red card waiting to happen etc, yet who went on to play more League games than anyone since the EPL started.

And what would any of this prove?

Not a lot, tbh, other than to take us away from the point, which is that you say Dier hasn't got what it takes to be a top level player.

When what you really mean is that you cannot see what Dier has to be a top level player.

But what is in little doubt is that Dier is a top level player because, er, he has been playing for top level teams, in top level competition, consistently now for over five years, whilst still only 24.

Which better judges than you or I will ever be can see clearly enough. 


Edited by Territorial - 11 Dec 2018 at 4:13pm
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Ok, as you are just going to go round and round in circles about managers of a higher standing knowing more than everyone else (even though this only stands in Diers case, not any other case such as Smalling or countless other players).

You basically took my positive triats for Dier, physicality and not injury prone, and these were all you could come up with after numerous posts. So, a few questions to ask.

Is Dier a good passer of the ball? 

Is Dier prone to lapses of concentration, wandering way out of position leaving the defence totally exposed? 

If Wanyama was never injured would he be a better option than Dier if Spurs were only starting 1 in midfield?

Are you, Terri, allowed to answer these questions and give your actual opinion, or do you need to consult Pochettino first to see what his opinion on the above is and then just regurgitate it?
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

You basically took my positive triats for Dier, physicality and not injury prone, and these were all you could come up with after numerous posts. 
I agreed with the two grudging compliments you allowed Dier and added my own.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

So, a few questions to ask.

Is Dier a good passer of the ball?
Well he hasn't got the quick, nimble feet of a Dele or an Eriksen, but given time on the ball, his passing is good enough, at least for a DM.

Or as Gareth Southgate said when questioned as to why he had omitted (ahem) Chris Smalling:
Of those defenders Southgate chose for his most recent squad, he named Eric Dier, Harry Maguire and John Stones as being “even better” than Smalling at initiating the play.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/nov/21/chris-smalling-gareth-southgate-england-defender

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Is Dier prone to lapses of concentration, wandering way out of position leaving the defence totally exposed? 
No, not in my opinion.

In fact, I was reading a while back where Poch often assumes a variation on the classic Guardiola/Klopp gegenpressing game, by insisting that if his players haven't regained possession after losing it within 3 to 4 seconds, then they are required to regroup and take up a defensive guard (rather than continuing to try to regain it). And I've seen it in action myself.

In such a scenario, the positioning of your DM's is critical. In my observation, Dier's ability to get around the field quickly and block the runs or passes of counter-attacking opponents is one of his best qualities, requiring as it does, judgement and discipline.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

If Wanyama was never injured would he be a better option than Dier if Spurs were only starting 1 in midfield?
(Genuinely) Hard to say*.

I personally may prefer Wanyama, but that is (ahem) light years away from claiming that Wanyama is "literally light years" [sic] ahead of Dier as a footballer.

Either way, I am loathe to disregard the opinion of Poch, who when faced with the same decision last season, tended to pick Wanyama for the lesser games and Dier for the big games. 


* - Well "hard to say" unless you're completely certain of your opinions, even when those opinions are ridiculously over-the-top and contrary to all of the evidence. Still, we can't all be omniscient, can we Hans?

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Are you, Terri, allowed to answer these questions and give your actual opinion, or do you need to consult Pochettino first to see what his opinion on the above is and then just regurgitate it?
Hmmmm. 

I need an opinion on football, and in particular on a Spurs player. Who do I consult first, Pochettino or Moleman?

Tricky one... LOL




Edited by Territorial - 11 Dec 2018 at 4:54pm
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I just find it funny that you need to consult anyone for an opinion on players or teams that you have seen regularly. I know I most definitely don't need anyone to give me an opinion on Spurs as a side, how good or bad they are. I've seen them countless times in the past few years, albeit not in person. I've also seen Dier countless times playing in those games, and I don't need Pochettino or anyone else to sway my thoughts on him. 

On the basis of what you're saying, if Pochettino came out and slammed Dier in the next few weeks for past performances, and said he wouldn't play again for Spurs, and the plan is to sell him in January, you would just nod along and slam Dier for past performances. 

The whole thing is just bizarre tbh. If I went into any other thread you've commented on, and found comments where you've said a player isn't anywhere near good enough for the side he is currently playing with, I could just tear that apart by saying -

 '(insert any manager name here) plays him regularly and has done for years now. Your opinion is just silly. I think I'll go with (insert any manager name here) opinion over you on that player. I get the feeling (insert any manager name here) might know know more about this than you and other barstoolers.'
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Disagree with Hans on a lot of his football views but this one is 100% spot on, Dier is not good enough for a top 4 side and won’t have many top sides after him when he moves on, spurs will be as a big as it gets for him and zero trophies while you’re at it.
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I reckon that DM role is one of the easiest positions to play to an average level but is incredibly hard to play to a high standard. Look at Busquets for example, his positional awareness, first touch and passing ability are superb and very hard to replicate. Then look at Glen Whelan, a good honest lad who limits his game to protecting the space in front of the centre halves. Basic but effective.

Edited by MC Hammered - 11 Dec 2018 at 6:28pm
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The only one disagreeing with Hans is Terry.

He would argue that water is not wet with pointness irrelevant facts and other such nonsense to convolute the initial point and that is, nobody on this forum rates Dier as a footballer, and I'm sure that opinion is more widespread regardless if Poch disagrees with it or not.

You only need to look at the O'Neill and poaching ROI players comments.
It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
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Terri’s tactics on here smack of the same chit as SA uses
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Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:



I reckon that DM role is one of the easiest positions to play to an average level but is incredibly hard to play to a high standard. Look at Busquets for example, his positional awareness, first touch and passing ability are superb and very hard to replicate. Then look at Glen Whelan, a good honest lad who limits his game to protecting the space in front of the centre halves. Basic but effective.

I would agree with that a lot. There are many players out there who play this position to a very average level and get away with it, Dier is definitely one of those. He's just filling a gap. Doesn't read the play properly. I am not a fan of Glenn Whelan whatsoever, but Whelan had a far better read of defensive situations than Dier, but lacks Diers physicality. It seems that just being there, somewhere in an area in front of the CBs on your team is now deemed you doing a quality defensive midfield job. 
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by Sono Sono wrote:

Disagree with Hans on a lot of his football views but this one is 100% spot on, Dier is not good enough for a top 4 side and won’t have many top sides after him when he moves on, spurs will be as a big as it gets for him and zero trophies while you’re at it.

We agree on Dier.

Well, smack my ass and call me Judy Hug
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

I just find it funny that you need to consult anyone for an opinion on players or teams that you have seen regularly. I know I most definitely don't need anyone to give me an opinion on Spurs as a side, how good or bad they are. I've seen them countless times in the past few years, albeit not in person. I've also seen Dier countless times playing in those games, and I don't need Pochettino or anyone else to sway my thoughts on him.
I don't need to consult anyone.
But when faced with someone who claims eg "Dier is absolutely abysmal", I could just say: "No, you're wrong". Then you'd reply, "No, I'm right, you're wrong" et cetera, et bloody cetera.

Which is why I prefer to point to evidence and statistics to back my case (I note that you signally fail to do so, unless you count a reference to Chris Bloody Smalling! LOL), plus the opinion of three different, qualified judges, whose professional opinion clearly opposes your own.

Oh and btw, I guarantee I've seen more of Spurs than you generally both live and on tv, including having seen Dier live dozens of times.

(I go to a lot of their games)
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

On the basis of what you're saying, if Pochettino came out and slammed Dier in the next few weeks for past performances, and said he wouldn't play again for Spurs, and the plan is to sell him in January, you would just nod along and slam Dier for past performances. 
what a ridiculous scenario! Or do you honestly think anything remotely like that is going to happen? Confused

If your argument is based on fantastical nonsense like that, then perhaps it's time you stopped smoking whatever it is you're on.
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

The whole thing is just bizarre tbh. If I went into any other thread you've commented on, and found comments where you've said a player isn't anywhere near good enough for the side he is currently playing with, I could just tear that apart by saying -

 '(insert any manager name here) plays him regularly and has done for years now. Your opinion is just silly. I think I'll go with (insert any manager name here) opinion over you on that player. I get the feeling (insert any manager name here) might know know more about this than you and other barstoolers.'
Wow! Yet another "if"!

But I tell you what, why don't you do just that?

You know, find an utterly ridiculous claim I made about some player and tear it apart.

I'll not be holding my breath.
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Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
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Points: 5817 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by Sono Sono wrote:

Disagree with Hans on a lot of his football views but this one is 100% spot on, Dier is not good enough for a top 4 side and won’t have many top sides after him when he moves on, spurs will be as a big as it gets for him and zero trophies while you’re at it.
Really?



(Spurs turned them down, partly because they didn't want to sell to a rival and partly because they'd just trousered £50m for City for Kyle Walker, so didn't need to sell.)
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