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Jack Charlton
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Edited by Territorial - 23 May 2019 at 3:23pm
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Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Luck indeed, like United’s deflected winner denying Liverpool the Big Treble in 1977.
Indeed.

Yet you could argue another way of looking at it by pointing out that on their way to the FAC Final, LFC needed a replay to beat Palace in the 3rd Round, then drew Carlisle, Oldham and Boro, admittedly before facing Everton in the semi's, where even then it needed a replay to go through. 

In fact, if you look closer at that season, LFC "only" won the League by one point, ahead of (ahem) Man City. They won the Anfield game against City 2-1 and only got a draw at Maine Road courtesy of an 89th minute O.G.

They went out of the League Cup first time out to WBA. 

And they had a piss-easy procession to the Final of the European Cup, playing Crusaders, Trabzonspor, St.Etienne and Zurich.

Therefore you could argue that they were unlucky not to win the Treble, due to that deflection.

Or you could equally argue that they were lucky to win the League (late O.G.) and were lucky enough with the European Cup (easy draw), meaning they might easily have won nothing!

But whichever way it turned out, what you cannot deny is that that Liverpool team was a truly great one, with the proof being not what happened/didn't happen in that one season. 

Rather it is the fact that that particular season came in the middle of a run of consecutive League finishes from 1973 to 1980 of 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 1st.

And when you're talking of a period encompassing hundreds of games, then you can factor out luck, whether good or bad.

Which, to get us back to this thread, is beginning to look suspiciously like what is developing at the Etihad, after 150+ games of PG's management.

We'll see.





Edited by Territorial - 23 May 2019 at 2:45pm
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Fck sake Terri, your posts are long enough without posting the same ones twice
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Fck sake Terri, your posts are long enough without posting the same ones twice
Twice? Has he cut back!LOL
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And Bergkamp missing a penalty against Utd in semi in 99.
"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Fck sake Terri, your posts are long enough without posting the same ones twice
See, that's the problem.

If I don't make my case crystal-clear, Moleman will nip in to fill the gaps with made-up stuff.

And if I don't provide evidence and statistics etc to back the case, but instead just rely on wild assertions and hyperbole, then I risk becoming Moleman. Shocked

And I can't afford to bust my bank account backing Liverpool to win everything. LOL


Edited by Territorial - 23 May 2019 at 3:30pm
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LOL
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

I love how the CL is knocked down to a tournament of knock out football luck when it suits the narrative. Guardiola is a sensational manager, but there's no doubt he has been a massive failure at City and Bayern when judged against the highest barometer of CL success alone. That failure isn't anything at all to do with luck, it's to do with flaws in both Guardiolas systems, selections and also Guardiolas players themselves.

His domestic success at Bayern and City is phenomenal though. I've no doubt if he walked away from City today many would question his reign at both clubs. I think due to the CL performances, above par in both 3 year performances would be the his mark, but nothing incredible as many are making out.

Terri calling City the greatest team in 20 years in English football is comical. Many others are doing this also. A team that has won the domestic treble (a great achievement tbf) but hasn't got past the CL QF in 3 years under Guardiola. It is absolute nonsense to put City's achievements this season up there with the likes of United in '08 winning a CL and PL double, United '99 treble.

Btw, the 100 points thing, that is one for another long long discussion. This whole thing of tying 100 and 98 points to City then being potentially the best league side of all time is insane. On that basis I'm pretty sure PSG last season racked up huge points, are that 2017/18 side one of the greatest French league sides of all time? It's a mental conclusion to draw from the domestic points tallies of sides. There are a huge amount of other factors to speak of when talking about such huge points tallies being racked up nowadays in domestic leagues in Europe.




Agree on this 100%. The stratification of resources between the top six and the rest of the league means that the best sides now are likely to be head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

The difference in standard between the top and bottom of the league is always wide but there's rarely been such a difference between first and mid table. Look at Watford this season: they were 11th (basically solid mid table territory) and from their twelve games against the top six, they picked up only three points. By way of comparison, in 2000-01, Newcastle in 11th got fifteen points against the then top six. That's just one stat that shows how the league has stratified.

The 70 points achieved by Arsenal in fifth is monumentally high for a fifth placed team, gained because the top six are so much above the rest of the league that they hoover up points in a way they simply weren't doing until recently. This is the fourth season in a row when that has happened - up until 2013 it hadn't happened once that fifth had at least 70 points (in a 38 game Premier League season). Now though, because the top sides make so much more money, mostly due to the corrosive effect of Champions League money, the league is increasingly uncompetitive. That being the case, it's hard to say that City's achievement in getting 198 points over two seasons is better than Man United getting 171 points over two seasons in 2000 and 2001, or Chelsea getting 186 in 2005 and 2006.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 23 May 2019 at 6:41pm
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Regarding Terri’s post above about Liverpool’s run to the European Cup final in 76/77, St.Etienne had a great side in that period and reached the European Cup final at Hampdon Park in season 75/76. St.Etienne outplayed Bayern Munich in the final, hitting the woodwork 3 times.

Edited by Mulvanystrasse - 23 May 2019 at 7:27pm
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Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:


The 70 points achieved by Arsenal in fifth is monumentally high for a fifth placed team, gained because the top six are so much above the rest of the league that they hoover up points in a way they simply weren't doing until recently. This is the fourth season in a row when that has happened - up until 2013 it hadn't happened once that fifth had at least 70 points (in a 38 game Premier League season). Now though, because the top sides make so much more money, mostly due to the corrosive effect of Champions League money, the league is increasingly uncompetitive. That being the case, it's hard to say that City's achievement in getting 198 points over two seasons is better than Man United getting 171 points over two seasons in 2000 and 2001, or Chelsea getting 186 in 2005 and 2006.
You make an interesting point, but I'll see your "relativism" and raise you my "absolutism".

That is, it's not just that the Top Six have pulled further away from the rest than ever before (which they have), but it's also that they are "better" in absolute terms than we've seen for a long time.

And the evidence for that is that the EPL's Top Six has this season provided all four European finalists, even without the best of them (City), who themselves needed another English team to knock them out.

And it's not just the number of games won which stands to them, but the way in which they've won them. City and LFC, with Spurs on occasion, have served up dazzling, innovative and progressive football, demonstrating amazing technique, teamwork, tactical awareness and athleticism. And even Arsenal and Chelsea have showed fleeting signs at times. Which is one of the reasons why they've bowled over weaker teams by big scores, not just domestically, but in Europe as well.

Add to that the clear signs of progress at Wolves, Leicester and Everton, and they can perhaps hope eventually to close again the gap, which you rightly identify has opened between the top and the middle.

Or to put it another way, can you really compare these developments with eg the cynical, defensive functionalism of Mourinho's Chelsea in 2006/2006? Even Ferguson's last two title-winning teams (2010/11 and esp 2012/13) were decidedly average compared with his great teams of a few years earlier.

Of course it's too early to predict after just one season of European success, but I think we may be approaching another golden age for English football, with PG and Klopp (and Poch?) building teams to compare with the very best of Ferguson, Clough and Paisley, from 20+ years ago. 
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Originally posted by Mulvanystrasse Mulvanystrasse wrote:

Regarding Terri’s post above about Liverpool’s run to the European Cup final in 76/77, St.Etienne had a great side in that period and reached the European Cup final at Hampdon Park in season 75/76. St.Etienne outplayed Bayern Munich in the final, hitting the woodwork 3 times.
Fair point.

And what it means is that Liverpool faced one excellent team on their way to the final i.e. 2 tough games out of eight.

Which is not to detract from what was undoubtedly a magnificent LFC team, but it puts into perspective the challenge they faced in winning two trophies that season, as compared with City's in winning three this season.
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Mulvanystrasse Mulvanystrasse wrote:

Regarding Terri’s post above about Liverpool’s run to the European Cup final in 76/77, St.Etienne had a great side in that period and reached the European Cup final at Hampdon Park in season 75/76. St.Etienne outplayed Bayern Munich in the final, hitting the woodwork 3 times.
Fair point.

And what it means is that Liverpool faced one excellent team on their way to the final i.e. 2 tough games out of eight.

Which is not to detract from what was undoubtedly a magnificent LFC team, but it puts into perspective the challenge they faced in winning two trophies that season, as compared with City's in winning three this season.

To win the European Cup in 76/77 Liverpool also had to beat a very strong Borussia Monchengladbach team in the final, ‘Gladbach matched Bayern Munich in the ‘70’s for Bundesliga title wins.


Edited by Mulvanystrasse - 23 May 2019 at 9:10pm
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It is hilarious Terri that you talk of a handy cup run for that Liverpool side in the late 70s. A team that had sustained excellence at the top in both their domestic competitions and in Europe. Something Man City are currently miles off achieving in Europe , that kind of period of sustained excellence.

It's your mo though Terri, you twist absolutely everything to suit your narrative. So Liverpool in the late 70s had a handy draw to win the European Cup according to you (already essentially dispelled in the last couple of posts). Can you list the sides City beat on the way to their FA cup and league cup wins this season? Or does that not suit your train of thought on this?

Btw SuperDave is spot on. The amount of variables in using points tallies in PL success as a barometer of who is a better side over time is massive. United won the PL in '99 with 79 points. A measly 79 points. Yet you believe somehow that just because City have hit 100 and 98 points in 2 seasons that this is the proof in the pudding of their greatness? It is nonsensical stuff.
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was nonsensical to use points tallies as a basis for comparison. They are a starting point but they clearly come with some very significant warnings and you do have to have regard to the relative strength of the teams in the league.

How other top teams fared and how other mid table teams fared is a valid way of looking at it. If you look at how much better a league winning team does than its immediate rivals, and if you look at the strength of the league by seeing how mid and lower table teams generally did against top teams, then you have a stronger basis for comparison. It can be done but the raw figure of overall points achieved by the winner is no more than a very basic starting point.
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It is indeed a very basic starting point. The fact is that Terri keeps going on about the big 6. That's 10 games against supposed excellent opposition in the PL. Did Liverpool drop a single points in 20 fixtures against the bottom 10 sides this season? That's 60 points. 60 points in the bag without playing a single fixture against top half sides (I think that stat is right). I know City lost a couple of games to bottom half sides, but that was a huge surprise. It wouldn't have surprised me at all if Liverpool and City didn't drop a single point to those bottom 10 sides last season, such is the enormous gulf now between the top, middle and bottom.

You mentioned it yourself about how the top 4 tallies are rising and rising. United in 98/99 with 79 points would have been battling for 3rd spot this season.

The magic 40 points for safety from relegation is long gone in general, there may be an odd season where 40 points is required to be safe.

It is a very basic barometer to judge a teams greatness by, such are the massive amount of variables at play over time in a league.


Edited by Hans Moleman - 23 May 2019 at 11:18pm
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by Mulvanystrasse Mulvanystrasse wrote:


To win the European Cup in 76/77 Liverpool also had to beat a very strong Borussia Monchengladbach team in the final, ‘Gladbach matched Bayern Munich in the ‘70’s for Bundesliga title wins.
I specifically referred to their run to the final, not the final itself (where you are guaranteed to meet a top side, whether 1977 or 2019).

But see the bigger picture. Back then, there were merely 32 teams in the European Cup. It was an open draw, meaning that a top team could meet any one of the dozen very weak teams which were champions of their country. Liverpool could have got any of Dundalk, Omonia, Jeunesse Esch, Sliema, TPS Finland, IA Iceland, Viking Norway, Koge Denmark; they got Crusaders.

None of these, or even the middling ranked Champions (Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary etc) were as strong as the teams finishing 2nd or 3rd in Italy, England, Germany, Spain etc in the CL today.

And in order to get to the finals, not only was the overall standard much lower than with the present day CL, but they only had to play 8 games, as against 12 today.  

Therefore the challenge facing Liverpool to get to the Final this season or last was significantly greater than that which faced Liverpool back in 1976/77. I think that much is indisputable.

(Which, before Moleman jumps in, is NOT to say that that LFC team was weaker than today's. As I noted previously, it was magnificent, and I have no doubt that with modern methods, tactics and facilities etc, it would have been equally magnificent if transported to the present day)
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No jumping in Terri. You just seem to avoid the glaringly obvious.

Liverpool in '77 supposedly had soft draws in the run up to a European Cup final. Care to list Citys opponents on their FA Cup and League Cup winning run this season?
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Liverpool didn't drop a single point against bottom half sides. City lost two but won the other eighteen. That's 114 out of 120 points which is ludicrous.

Incidentally, in 2008-09, Man United took 58/60 against the bottom half so it isn't necessarily a new thing, but it's rare that there were two teams so dominant.
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