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The Man City Thread******* |
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sid waddell 
Roy Keane 
On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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 Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:42am |
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No it isn't Both are effectively joke competitions these days Big teams often get knocked out of them on purpose If a team stumbles through to the last four of either they might start taking it a bit seriously then Nobody even watches the semi-finals of the FA Cup these days It used to be the biggest weekend of the year
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sid waddell
Roy Keane
On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:36am |
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Ken Early thinks there may be some substance to these Guardiola to Juventus rumours
Guardiola's denial did seem rather qualified The rumours are not new either They've been around for a few months I'm puzzled as to why Juventus would get rid of Allegri if they didn't think they had a heavy hitter lined up to replace him |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:35am |
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I argued that winning the EC in the 1970's was easier than winning the CL in this decade. I outlined why. You may accept or reject my reasoning as you choose. As for the FAC and LC, I'd say winning them these days is broadly comparable to winning them back then.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:24am |
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In his first season, PG took them through a preliminary round, then through the Group stages, before losing to an excellent Monaco side which got to the semi's. In 2017/18 they won five straight Group games before losing a dead rubber 2-1 away to Shaktar. They then got to the Quarters, where they were beaten by Liverpool. And this season, they got to the Quarters, before losing by the narrowest possible margin to a finalist from a top League. (One whom they beat home and away in the PL, btw) In other words, clear progress, all whilst hoovering up domestic prizes with record points.
But because after 10 games in the CL they only came within 3 games of winning the CL for an unprecedented quadruple, you use words like "failure".
I'm not claiming it's the be-all and end-all when it comes to assessing a side, but it surely has relevance, unless... unless... unless... Ah now I get it. You have spent the last 10 months confidently telling us that LFC are the best team in the country and would win the league to prove it. So that when MC proved you wrong, you have this extreme compulsion to trash anyone who suggests that MC might actually be a bloody good team, or at least good enough to beat your choice. But before you come in and start putting words in my mouth - again - here precisely is what I think. I believe MC are the best English club side since the great MU team of 20 years ago. I wouldn't argue that they are better (or worse) than that team, due to the difficulty of assessing different eras etc. But I do believe that if PG continues to make progress over the next couple of seasons like he's done over the last couple, then he's quite capable of building a team to match the very finest of those of Ferguson, Clough and Paisley, including winning CL's (a tougher proposition than the old European Cup, btw). Oh and one last thing. Klopp's Liverpool is barely a hair's breadth behind them. But that's another difference between us. Even if I admire MC, it doesn't mean I have therefore to trash their challengers, even in the face of all evidence. Back to you. Edited by Territorial - 24 May 2019 at 12:25am |
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sid waddell
Roy Keane
On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:19am |
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The word crack as used in relation to continental European football teams is much missed from the game My father was a great man for that word The word crack carried fearsome overtones Crack teams were superhuman, unbeatable, their supporters would blow those sinister horns that were popular during the 1974 World Cup The crack German teams The crack Italian teams The crack Romanians Steaua Bucharest The crack Soviets Dynamo Kiev Crack teams were the teams that only had telephone line connections available to British Islesian commentators when our boys went into their lions' den One of my earliest memories of football is driving through Castlerea in county Roscommon and hearing on a late night RTE sports bulletin that Dundee United had done the impossible and beaten the crack German outfit Borussia Moenchengladbach 2-0 away from home in the second leg of the 1987 UEFA Cup semi-final My father was astonished This was a crack German team that had been beaten Crack teams never lost But that night the illusion of the European cracks was shattered by little Dundee United I guess you could say the cracks started showing There are no crack teams anymore
Edited by sid waddell - 24 May 2019 at 12:23am |
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:05am |
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I remember that. Liverpool drew with a lot of middling sides but had a great record against the top sides iirc. United just kept beating the dross
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Trap junior
Robbie Keane
YBIG Minister of Doom & Gloom Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Location: Irish Riviera Status: Offline Points: 39908 |
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:02am |
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If Pep wanted to prove himself he would take a club like Everton and make them title contenders. He will only take a job where he can be in charge of an all star team of crack professionals. Coward. He will take the job of the Harlem Globetrotters next.
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Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC) |
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane
ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 11:53pm |
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Liverpool didn't drop a single point against bottom half sides. City lost two but won the other eighteen. That's 114 out of 120 points which is ludicrous. Incidentally, in 2008-09, Man United took 58/60 against the bottom half so it isn't necessarily a new thing, but it's rare that there were two teams so dominant.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 11:46pm |
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No jumping in Terri. You just seem to avoid the glaringly obvious.
Liverpool in '77 supposedly had soft draws in the run up to a European Cup final. Care to list Citys opponents on their FA Cup and League Cup winning run this season?
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 11:41pm |
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But see the bigger picture. Back then, there were merely 32 teams in the European Cup. It was an open draw, meaning that a top team could meet any one of the dozen very weak teams which were champions of their country. Liverpool could have got any of Dundalk, Omonia, Jeunesse Esch, Sliema, TPS Finland, IA Iceland, Viking Norway, Koge Denmark; they got Crusaders. None of these, or even the middling ranked Champions (Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary etc) were as strong as the teams finishing 2nd or 3rd in Italy, England, Germany, Spain etc in the CL today. And in order to get to the finals, not only was the overall standard much lower than with the present day CL, but they only had to play 8 games, as against 12 today. Therefore the challenge facing Liverpool to get to the Final this season or last was significantly greater than that which faced Liverpool back in 1976/77. I think that much is indisputable. (Which, before Moleman jumps in, is NOT to say that that LFC team was weaker than today's. As I noted previously, it was magnificent, and I have no doubt that with modern methods, tactics and facilities etc, it would have been equally magnificent if transported to the present day)
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 11:17pm |
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It is indeed a very basic starting point. The fact is that Terri keeps going on about the big 6. That's 10 games against supposed excellent opposition in the PL. Did Liverpool drop a single points in 20 fixtures against the bottom 10 sides this season? That's 60 points. 60 points in the bag without playing a single fixture against top half sides (I think that stat is right). I know City lost a couple of games to bottom half sides, but that was a huge surprise. It wouldn't have surprised me at all if Liverpool and City didn't drop a single point to those bottom 10 sides last season, such is the enormous gulf now between the top, middle and bottom.
You mentioned it yourself about how the top 4 tallies are rising and rising. United in 98/99 with 79 points would have been battling for 3rd spot this season. The magic 40 points for safety from relegation is long gone in general, there may be an odd season where 40 points is required to be safe. It is a very basic barometer to judge a teams greatness by, such are the massive amount of variables at play over time in a league.
Edited by Hans Moleman - 23 May 2019 at 11:18pm |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane
ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 11:10pm |
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Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was nonsensical to use points tallies as a basis for comparison. They are a starting point but they clearly come with some very significant warnings and you do have to have regard to the relative strength of the teams in the league. How other top teams fared and how other mid table teams fared is a valid way of looking at it. If you look at how much better a league winning team does than its immediate rivals, and if you look at the strength of the league by seeing how mid and lower table teams generally did against top teams, then you have a stronger basis for comparison. It can be done but the raw figure of overall points achieved by the winner is no more than a very basic starting point.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 11:01pm |
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It is hilarious Terri that you talk of a handy cup run for that Liverpool side in the late 70s. A team that had sustained excellence at the top in both their domestic competitions and in Europe. Something Man City are currently miles off achieving in Europe , that kind of period of sustained excellence.
It's your mo though Terri, you twist absolutely everything to suit your narrative. So Liverpool in the late 70s had a handy draw to win the European Cup according to you (already essentially dispelled in the last couple of posts). Can you list the sides City beat on the way to their FA cup and league cup wins this season? Or does that not suit your train of thought on this? Btw SuperDave is spot on. The amount of variables in using points tallies in PL success as a barometer of who is a better side over time is massive. United won the PL in '99 with 79 points. A measly 79 points. Yet you believe somehow that just because City have hit 100 and 98 points in 2 seasons that this is the proof in the pudding of their greatness? It is nonsensical stuff.
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Mulvanystrasse
Liam Brady
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 Location: Boston USA Status: Offline Points: 2015 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:05pm |
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To win the European Cup in 76/77 Liverpool also had to beat a very strong Borussia Monchengladbach team in the final, ‘Gladbach matched Bayern Munich in the ‘70’s for Bundesliga title wins.
Edited by Mulvanystrasse - 23 May 2019 at 9:10pm |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 7:51pm |
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And what it means is that Liverpool faced one excellent team on their way to the final i.e. 2 tough games out of eight. Which is not to detract from what was undoubtedly a magnificent LFC team, but it puts into perspective the challenge they faced in winning two trophies that season, as compared with City's in winning three this season.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 7:43pm |
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You make an interesting point, but I'll see your "relativism" and raise you my "absolutism". That is, it's not just that the Top Six have pulled further away from the rest than ever before (which they have), but it's also that they are "better" in absolute terms than we've seen for a long time. And the evidence for that is that the EPL's Top Six has this season provided all four European finalists, even without the best of them (City), who themselves needed another English team to knock them out. And it's not just the number of games won which stands to them, but the way in which they've won them. City and LFC, with Spurs on occasion, have served up dazzling, innovative and progressive football, demonstrating amazing technique, teamwork, tactical awareness and athleticism. And even Arsenal and Chelsea have showed fleeting signs at times. Which is one of the reasons why they've bowled over weaker teams by big scores, not just domestically, but in Europe as well. Add to that the clear signs of progress at Wolves, Leicester and Everton, and they can perhaps hope eventually to close again the gap, which you rightly identify has opened between the top and the middle. Or to put it another way, can you really compare these developments with eg the cynical, defensive functionalism of Mourinho's Chelsea in 2006/2006? Even Ferguson's last two title-winning teams (2010/11 and esp 2012/13) were decidedly average compared with his great teams of a few years earlier. Of course it's too early to predict after just one season of European success, but I think we may be approaching another golden age for English football, with PG and Klopp (and Poch?) building teams to compare with the very best of Ferguson, Clough and Paisley, from 20+ years ago.
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Mulvanystrasse
Liam Brady
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 Location: Boston USA Status: Offline Points: 2015 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 7:24pm |
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Regarding Terri’s post above about Liverpool’s run to the European Cup final in 76/77, St.Etienne had a great side in that period and reached the European Cup final at Hampdon Park in season 75/76. St.Etienne outplayed Bayern Munich in the final, hitting the woodwork 3 times.
Edited by Mulvanystrasse - 23 May 2019 at 7:27pm |
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane
ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 6:39pm |
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Agree on this 100%. The stratification of resources between the top six and the rest of the league means that the best sides now are likely to be head and shoulders above the rest of the league. The difference in standard between the top and bottom of the league is always wide but there's rarely been such a difference between first and mid table. Look at Watford this season: they were 11th (basically solid mid table territory) and from their twelve games against the top six, they picked up only three points. By way of comparison, in 2000-01, Newcastle in 11th got fifteen points against the then top six. That's just one stat that shows how the league has stratified. The 70 points achieved by Arsenal in fifth is monumentally high for a fifth placed team, gained because the top six are so much above the rest of the league that they hoover up points in a way they simply weren't doing until recently. This is the fourth season in a row when that has happened - up until 2013 it hadn't happened once that fifth had at least 70 points (in a 38 game Premier League season). Now though, because the top sides make so much more money, mostly due to the corrosive effect of Champions League money, the league is increasingly uncompetitive. That being the case, it's hard to say that City's achievement in getting 198 points over two seasons is better than Man United getting 171 points over two seasons in 2000 and 2001, or Chelsea getting 186 in 2005 and 2006.
Edited by SuperDave84 - 23 May 2019 at 6:41pm |
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Territorial wrote: