Formula 1

unbelievable race

SuperDave84 wrote: That was the best race I have ever seen. So much drama throughout, and incredibly good driving by Alonso and Button. Vettel once again wins a title because he has the best car rather than because he is the best racer (even if his team almost f**ked it up for him by bringing him in for those hard tyres near round lap 55).

SuperDave84 wrote: Smartalex wrote: SuperDave84 wrote: That was the best race I have ever seen. So much drama throughout, and incredibly good driving by Alonso and Button. Vettel once again wins a title because he has the best car rather than because he is the best racer (even if his team almost f**ked it up for him by bringing him in for those hard tyres near round lap 55). hes one of the best if not the best usually the champion is in the best car thats the whole idea Nah, Alonso was definitely the best racer this year. By comparison with teammates, Vettel finished 102 points ahead of Webber..... Alonso was 156 points ahead Massa. Biggest difference between any teammates. Even Raikkonen wasn't that much better than Grosjean (he finished 111 clear).

SuperDave84 wrote: Smartalex wrote: SuperDave84 wrote: Smartalex wrote: SuperDave84 wrote: That was the best race I have ever seen. So much drama throughout, and incredibly good driving by Alonso and Button. Vettel once again wins a title because he has the best car rather than because he is the best racer (even if his team almost f**ked it up for him by bringing him in for those hard tyres near round lap 55). hes one of the best if not the best usually the champion is in the best car thats the whole idea Nah, Alonso was definitely the best racer this year. By comparison with teammates, Vettel finished 102 points ahead of Webber..... Alonso was 156 points ahead Massa. Biggest difference between any teammates. Even Raikkonen wasn't that much better than Grosjean (he finished 111 clear). didnt say he wasnt youre missing the point - its the combination of car + driver that counts - it always has been going back to piquet prost lauda et al vettel deserves it for his 2nd half of the season performance same as a football team making a late charge for the title errr..... but anyway, i'm not denying that vettel deserved to win on the basis that he had a great car and great form in the second half of the year, but alonso was probably the best actual individual driver, bearing in mind how poor his car was comparatively and how much better he was than his teammate. Switch Alonso and Vettel and there's no way the world championship would have been that close.

Smartalex wrote: SuperDave84 wrote: Smartalex wrote: SuperDave84 wrote: Smartalex wrote: SuperDave84 wrote: That was the best race I have ever seen. So much drama throughout, and incredibly good driving by Alonso and Button. Vettel once again wins a title because he has the best car rather than because he is the best racer (even if his team almost f**ked it up for him by bringing him in for those hard tyres near round lap 55). hes one of the best if not the best usually the champion is in the best car thats the whole idea Nah, Alonso was definitely the best racer this year. By comparison with teammates, Vettel finished 102 points ahead of Webber..... Alonso was 156 points ahead Massa. Biggest difference between any teammates. Even Raikkonen wasn't that much better than Grosjean (he finished 111 clear). didnt say he wasnt youre missing the point - its the combination of car + driver that counts - it always has been going back to piquet prost lauda et al vettel deserves it for his 2nd half of the season performance same as a football team making a late charge for the title errr..... but anyway, i'm not denying that vettel deserved to win on the basis that he had a great car and great form in the second half of the year, but alonso was probably the best actual individual driver, bearing in mind how poor his car was comparatively and how much better he was than his teammate. Switch Alonso and Vettel and there's no way the world championship would have been that close. errr what ? i said vettel was one of the best as you have so kindly pointed out nowhere did i say alonso wasnt the best but again you miss the point - its the car and driver together that win it its like saying messi is the best player in the world so he should win the world cup - its a team effort

It's not the first part, it's the second part "if not the best" that I was drawing attention to. You were effectively arguing that Vettel was more or less the best driver or close to it. And I did NOT say Alonso deserved to win the world championship (which is the corollary of the straw man argument you are constructing about messi / best player in the world / winning the world cup). What I said was he was the best racer. Which is the equivalent of saying Messi is the best player in the world. I did NOT take a step further and go on to say he deserved to win the championship. What I said is equivalent to saying Messi deserves to win the award for best player (as in the Ballon d'Or). Saying someone deserves to win the Ballon d'Or is completely different from saying they deserve to win the world cup. Alonso was in a sh*t car, significantly worse than Vettel's, yet he nearly won the championship (he likely would have done had Grosjean not attempted to take his head off in Belgium, or had Raikkonen not punctured him in Japan) and didn't make a single mistake all year (although I'll admit neither did Vettel), significantly outperformed his teammate and deserves kudos as the best driver of the year. It doesn't mean he deserves the championship and I never said that, but he absolutely deserves massive respect, probably more than Vettel IMO.

It's you who are missing the point and you'd do well to read my posts in more detail in the future.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 26 Nov 2012 at 9:10pm

Alonso has been the best driver in F1 nearly since he started with Minardi 11 years ago, maybe other than his early Bennetton years where Schumacher was at that stage still numero uno.  That much has been very obvious for a long time. Still, he isnt invincible either, he does fear Hamilton for some reason (and he probably shouldn't, given  McClaren favoured their man in the one year they were teammates) but it shows he isn't invincible. He is believed to have vetoed any Hamilton move to Ferrari when it became clear Hamilton was leaving McClaren earlier in the year as well, he apparently had no such objections to Vettel joining, in any case, Vettel probably realised that Ferrari is, as always, centered one one driver so had the sense to stay where he is. 

Doubtfull

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20541589