The Celtic Thread

pre Madonna wrote: That is because it was political not sectarian. That fact doesn't make it any less wrong or offensive and I am not unwilling to admit anything. I just feel that putting unnecessary and erroneous labels on things only complicates difficult matters further. I have also no problem admitting that some fans I share a football team with may hold some horrible deep-rooted beliefs, none whatsoever. If, however, they are wrongly accused or I feel they are being wrongly accused I will point it out, as you do when you see erroneous posts about fans of your team. I didn't see you complaining when I pointed out that Linfield never had a discriminatory signing policy; wanting to be factually correct doesn't make me a 'bigot'. There were no semantic definitions used at all, although use of the word Jesuitical, could be seen, ironically, as sectarian in the truest meaning of the word. Not that I could give a flying f**k about the ****s. For example, adding one example to construe a whole thirty year conflict, as you have done there(did you read this link by the way?) only muddies the waters further. I have never said there were no sectarian killings, read posts above, but that it wasn't a sectarian war. In calling it that people are completely oversimplifying a very complicated and difficult situation. I see it as both an insult and a stumbling block to every getting beyond it.

Over-complicating things is not just as bad as over-simplifying them, it's actually much worse.

That is because a simple "I Hate Huns/Fenians" narrative is unmistakeable.

Whereas a narrative that continually indulges in semantics, qualifications and elaborate "explanations" etc only serves to create a fog around the subject in which both the overtly bigoted and non-overtly bigoted may hide.

To take two examples, a Celtic fan who takes a Tricolour to an Old Firm game may protest that it actually symbolises "Peace between the Green and the Orange". And the Rangers fan may claim that it's OK to sing The Sash because it is merely a harmless folk tune. And technically both may be correct.

But it doesn't take any great intelligence to see through that bullsh*t, merely a modicum of integrity.

For insisting on defining every single word or deed as political/sectarian/cultural/nationalistic/racist etc, is missing the point.

That is, it is all Tribal, with the overriding criterion for belonging to that tribe, indeed the very "justification" for the tribe, being that you are better than them. And if you are better than them, they must be worse, ergo you are entitled to look down upon them, even hate them. Moreover, it is acceptable to hate them not because of what they say or do, but simply because of who they are i.e. Themmuns.

Once you understand and accept that, it really doesn't matter whether the tribalists define their own actions eg as "political" rather than "sectarian" or "anti-Republican" rather than "anti-Catholic" etc, it all amounts to hating Themmuns.

And whilst I accept that such hatreds exist in wider society generally, I do not accept that their most tribal adherents have the right to introduce them into the football stadium.

And still less do I accept those who attempt to condone or justify their actions via sophistry, speciousness and evasion.

Territorial wrote: pre Madonna wrote: I am just being curious here now, not having a go and it was presumably merely subliminal, but why did you capitalise the word 'poppy'? In the context of Remembrance Day, it is a proper noun eg "Poppy Day Appeal".

zizu Kilbane wrote: Territorial wrote: zizu Kilbane wrote: Your mob up there Terry have no problem glorifying murdering scum either, least we forget "Whataboutery" at its finest. Meanwhile, I personally don't agree with the increasing linkage of Poppies and Football etc which has crept into the game recently. I actually think it should be a personal and voluntary matter, not an enforced, collective one. But hey ho, I daresay you imagine everyone who's not in your own particular "mob" as inevitably being in the other one, with that other one doubtless being the bigoted one. Oh the irony... Fannying around my point mate. Both displays glorify 'murdering terrorists' yet you have decided to only strongly condemned one of them. Funny that isn't it? And I'm the bigot your language is very telling.

If you say so...

That last post from Territorial was one of the best posts I have read in a while. I haven't posted here in a while as I am sick to sh#t of the Rangers v Celtic negativity in these islands.
As a southern bear life is not easy and also being coi mem er does not help. I wish we could get back our differences being football rather than politics and religion. Here is a good article from belfast telegraph today. Would love the thoughts of celtic fans because I have left bars in limerick when this crap starts up as an excuse for music. Celtic and rangers have to move away from this culture. Thanks for reading.


Opinion: Michelle, how is it ‘respectful’ to taunt victims in rebel songs
By Nelson McCausland • 8 hours ago



Last Friday night, Linfield and Celtic met at Windsor Park. Celtic FC had turned down their allocation of tickets for the match and a number of bars in west Belfast showed the match on their premises on large screens for Celtic supporters.

One of these was the Rock Bar on the Falls Road, which describes itself as ‘Ireland’s Biggest Rebel Bar’ and ‘Belfast’s Home to Glasgow Celtic’.

As well as the match, the patrons were entertained by singers Gary Lawlor, Rising of the Moon and Damien Quinn in the upstairs bar and Gerry Og and Spirit of Freedom in the downstairs bar.

ADVERTISEMENT
Meanwhile, up at the Devenish Arms, the site of the Celtic fanzone, the entertainers were Damien Quinn, The Irish Brigade and Gary Lawlor.

They may not be household names around the world, but the singers are well-known to those with a love of ‘Irish republican culture’.

Damien, Gary and Gerry are all regulars at the weekly ‘Rebel Sunday’ in the Rock Bar and their performances are always appreciated by the enthusiastic patrons.

ADVERTISEMENT
Quinn has even written a song about ‘Rebel Sunday’ and one line explains that ‘Gerry Og and Damien Quinn sing the songs of the IRA’. Indeed they do. And they are not the only ones.

The ‘rebel music’ repertoire includes republican songs such as My Old Man’s A Provo, My Little Armalite and The IRA Will Set Them Free. The titles alone explain what ‘rebel music’ is about.

You might imagine that The SAM Song is about someone called Sam, but how wrong you would be. It is actually about the delight of an IRA terrorist when the IRA were able to acquire a surface-to-air missile (or SAM).

One of the most popular songs on the ‘rebel music’ scene has the lyrics: “Go on home, British soldiers, go on home/have you got no f****** homes of your own? F*** your Union Jack/we want our country back.”

Another popular rebel song has the title 18 Brits Were Blew To Bits and it is a celebration of IRA atrocities and murders.

These include the massacre of 18 soldiers near Warrenpoint, the murder of nine RUC officers in a mortar attack in Newry, the murder of Lord Mountbatten and the killings of Lord Justice Maurice Gibson and his wife, Lady Cecily.

It is a litany of death and yet customers dance to it and sing along, celebrating the IRA bombs and the slaughter.

At the Warrenpoint inquest, a doctor said he found dead and injured men, scattered limbs and decapitated bodies, but some people seem to think that these murders are a good subject for pumped-up, alcohol-fuelled entertainment.

Of course, such ‘rebel music’ is not limited to bars and clubs in west Belfast. The same songs can be heard any week of the year at many venues elsewhere in Northern Ireland, the Republic and some parts of Scotland.

There is a whole Irish rebel music scene and it is popular, but it is ugly, it is sectarian and it is poisonous.

Songs have the power to mould and motivate, so what sort of influence is there in songs such as these?

You may remember the Sinn Fein election posters demanding ‘respect’ and you may have heard Michelle O’Neill and other Sinn Fein politicians talking about the importance of “respect”.

So here is a question for Michelle O’Neill: where is the respect for the innocent victims of the IRA?

Where is the respect for the families of those who were so callously murdered by the IRA?

The ‘18 Brits’ were 18 young men and they had families, so where is the respect for those who still mourn the loss of their loved ones? The nine police officers had families too, so where is the respect for them?

If we are to build a shared and better future in Northern Ireland, then there are many issues that must be addressed.

And when that list of issues is being drawn up, then surely this dark underbelly of Irish culture has to be one of them?




Edited by rhodeboyblue - 20 Jul 2017 at 6:06pm

Griffiths gets one game ban after 1st leg in that hell hole. Celtic fined 4500 also.

Linfield 10000 fine and partial stadium closure next game. Cause it's always sold out

Edited by cardwizzard - 20 Jul 2017 at 6:28pm

1) Did you? You went off on a tangential stroll as far as I can see.

Edited by pre Madonna - 20 Jul 2017 at 6:56pm

Drumcondra 69er wrote: [] Much as I agree that Pre Madonna is talking out of his hoop (excuse the pun) on this, are you seriously comparing our national flag (the meaning of which is actually peace between both traditions) with a song that specifically references the protagonist as being a member of an organisation that is sectarian by its very nature along with mentioning the siege of Derry, the Boyne and various other battles? Seriously?

Edited by pre Madonna - 20 Jul 2017 at 9:44pm

pre Madonna wrote: Drumcondra 69er wrote: [] Much as I agree that Pre Madonna is talking out of his hoop (excuse the pun) on this, are you seriously comparing our national flag (the meaning of which is actually peace between both traditions) with a song that specifically references the protagonist as being a member of an organisation that is sectarian by its very nature along with mentioning the siege of Derry, the Boyne and various other battles? Seriously?  Could you point out what I have said that is out of my hoop? Thanks. I think a few people have talked out of their hoop, but feel it is better to argue the points than make sweeping statements without basis.

"That's the display, it isn't blatant but it could be deemed political alright!"

If you really think they display wasn't blatant then that's a prime example.

Your man above there trying to pass off an article by Nelson McCausland as some sort of classic price of writing