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FINLAND VS IRELAND

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Alan Kernaghan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Bru Bru wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto_Carlow Roberto_Carlow wrote:

So we are all in agreement then.

Sack Kenny and appoint Dyche.

Like the FAI couldn't afford him...  I'm sure the long ball approach would be something you would welcome back with open arms. Wacko

We simply can't go back to the way it was before, the football was toxic and it didn't make us harder to beat or give us a better chance of scoring. Duffy has been our best chance of a goal for a long time.

Playing direct just gave possession of the ball away and put us in the defensive foot.

I agree, It was painful turning up to the Aviva watching that month after month for the past few years. We are creating good chances at the moment instead of these 50-50 crosses and punts up field. Stick with it !!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dots1982 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Terzino Terzino wrote:

The results have been disappointing so far, but the performances have been encouraging. For the first time in ages you can feel optimistic about the future.

And to me, the argument over passing versus long-ball is redundant, because we are passing the ball up the pitch quite well. A long-ball may get the ball forward quicker, but you have a very good chance of losing possession.

We don't have a traditional target man either. So what would be the point of going direct?

Also, long-ball is judged on how many chances you create. But that is not our problem at the moment. Our problem is putting away the chances we make.

So we need to find the right personnel to fill the forward roles.

The criticism of Brady's set-pieces is also something I don't get. He put two corners onto the heads of Doherty and Duffy, and the Duffy chance should have been scored. In other areas of his game he can be a bit mixed, but his set-pieces are still good.

Overall, the team is clearly moving in the right direction. Kenny needs to tweak some things. He doesn't need to revert back to a more direct style in an effort to get results.

People just like to give out about Brady. His left foot for crossing is a decent tool. Stuck his penalty away in Slovakia and was the one I had no worries about missing. He’s a good footballer, but I think he’s collecting a wage at burnley and in a comfort zone at club level.

You say that putting away chances is out problem but I think creating chances in quick succession is a big problem aswell, our chances are always created 15-20 mins apart. We aren’t blitzing defence enough, we give them too much time to regroup and reorganize.


Edited by Dots1982 - 15 Oct 2020 at 2:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Not sure how true this is as I'm only pulling from a comment from the42 but would be amazing it true 

nations league games pass completion percentages so far top 5

Spain 90%
Ireland 88%
Belgium 88%
Germany 87%
Portugal 87%



Right and what good is that to us?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankosHereNow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Not sure how true this is as I'm only pulling from a comment from the42 but would be amazing it true 

nations league games pass completion percentages so far top 5

Spain 90%
Ireland 88%
Belgium 88%
Germany 87%
Portugal 87%



Right and what good is that to us?
We concede possession a lot less than we used to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MayoMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Not sure how true this is as I'm only pulling from a comment from the42 but would be amazing it true 

nations league games pass completion percentages so far top 5

Spain 90%
Ireland 88%
Belgium 88%
Germany 87%
Portugal 87%



Right and what good is that to us?

It shows a clear improvement in one aspect of our game. That's a good thing surely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Not sure how true this is as I'm only pulling from a comment from the42 but would be amazing it true 

nations league games pass completion percentages so far top 5

Spain 90%
Ireland 88%
Belgium 88%
Germany 87%
Portugal 87%



Right and what good is that to us?
Football is supposed to be played with the Thumbs Upball 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terzino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Dots1982 Dots1982 wrote:


People just like to give out about Brady. His left foot for crossing is a decent tool. Stuck his penalty away in Slovakia and was the one I had no worries about missing. He’s a good footballer, but I think he’s collecting a wage at burnley and in a comfort zone at club level.

You say that putting away chances is out problem but I think creating chances in quick succession is a big problem aswell, our chances are always created 15-20 mins apart. We aren’t blitzing defence enough, we give them too much time to regroup and reorganize.


Once Kenny has a settled eleven, and we move the ball a bit quicker, I think that will be sorted.

One of the interesting things to see in the future will be how we react to taking the lead. Normally we retreat after scoring a goal.

If we continue to create chances, that will be a big change in the psychology of the team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bohsbrother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 3:46pm
It's good to see the 2 sides here, the ones that style over the result and the ones that want the results no matter the style.

We have to take into consideration, our results were close to as bad with the hoof style football (We only beat the last ranked team in our group twice and the second last once and drew with them), at least in the recent past. We haven't been able to score from play on a regular basis in a LONG time and now we don't even have strikers that are great in the air for the hoof into the box, if we were to hoof it into the box we would still struggle to score. Separately, Kennys been cursed that our set piece takers haven't been able to hit duffys head or score a free kick.

I'd expect the appointment of Kenny was done with the ambition of changing our style of play which would lead to results improving and less backs to the wall football so calling people "football snobs etc..." for saying the style has changed rapidly is ignoring one of the reasons that the manager came in. From my side it's still a huge work in progress but I see good improvement.

With us not being at the Euros I'd hope we can play in a tournament with a few teams and play a few non-competitive games to try things out.

I think Byrne would have got a run against Finland with a striker in front of him, with McGoldrick dropping deep it would nullify the effectiveness of Byrne. Horgan gives an option for what Kenny wants, he's direct and has the pace to worry defences. I think we can see why Maguire didn't get a run in Kennys Dundalk team and he won't get much of a look in his Ireland one either.

Jury is out on the whole midfield, but we've found one or 2 players that will be the backbone of the team over the next number of years. Molumby, O'Shea and Connolly will only improve from playing games.

If Kenny has learned a few players that aren't good enough or suited to his style then the games have been worthwhile.


Edited by bohsbrother - 15 Oct 2020 at 3:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Not sure how true this is as I'm only pulling from a comment from the42 but would be amazing it true 

nations league games pass completion percentages so far top 5

Spain 90%
Ireland 88%
Belgium 88%
Germany 87%
Portugal 87%



Right and what good is that to us?

It shows a clear improvement in one aspect of our game. That's a good thing surely?

I make no comment whatever on SK's suitability for the job, since I've really only seen brief highlights of your games.

But possession is only ever a means to an end, not an end it itself.

For example, when Villa thrashed Liverpool 7-2 the other week, they only had 30% possession.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54313270
This was under a manager, Dean Smith, who made his name at Brentford playing passing, possession football.

By contrast, when Spurs hammered Man U at OT the same day, they had 62% possession, under a manager renowned for teams which are happy to concede possession, defend deep and hit teams on the break.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54313274

One of the greatest illustrations of the importance (or otherwise) of mere possession was seen when Chelsea, managed by Di Matteo, played Guardiola's Barcelona in a CL Semi-Final at home in 2012. They won 1-0 (Drogba), despite conceding 79.1% possession to Barca.
Chelsea had 1 shot on target, 2 off target and 1 blocked. By contrast, Barca had 6 on target, 8 off target and 10 (TEN) blocked:
https://www.skysports.com/football/chelsea-vs-barcelona/258579
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MayoMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Not sure how true this is as I'm only pulling from a comment from the42 but would be amazing it true 

nations league games pass completion percentages so far top 5

Spain 90%
Ireland 88%
Belgium 88%
Germany 87%
Portugal 87%



Right and what good is that to us?

It shows a clear improvement in one aspect of our game. That's a good thing surely?

I make no comment whatever on SK's suitability for the job, since I've really only seen brief highlights of your games.

But possession is only ever a means to an end, not an end it itself.

For example, when Villa thrashed Liverpool 7-2 the other week, they only had 30% possession.
This was under a manager, Dean Smith, who made his name at Brentford playing passing, possession football.

By contrast, when Spurs hammered Man U at OT the same day, they had 62% possession, under a manager renowned for teams which are happy to concede possession, defend deep and hit teams on the break.

One of the greatest illustrations of the importance (or otherwise) of mere possession was seen when Chelsea, managed by Di Matteo, played Guardiola's Barcelona in a CL Semi-Final at home in 2012. They won 1-0 (Drogba), despite conceding 79.1% possession to Barca.
Chelsea had 1 shot on target, 2 off target and 1 blocked. By contrast, Barca had 6 on target, 8 off target and 10 (TEN) blocked:

Correct, but a team who dominates the ball, more often than not, will increase their chances of winning. There will always be exceptions to that but they are in the minority of cases.

We had a team who were chronically bad at keeping the ball and it made us ridiculously predictable (down to management orders, I should add). Any improvement in this regard is welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 4:55pm
Providing 2 examples of possession football doesn't translate to a win, villa vs Liverpool and man utd vs Tottenham is a very poor analysis.

Everyone agrees that you can win a game with 5% possession but if two teams played each other 50 times the win ratio would look more like 49-1 in favour of the team with the 95% possession 

Better teams control the ball. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Correct, but a team who dominates the ball, more often than not, will increase their chances of winning. There will always be exceptions to that but they are in the minority of cases.

We had a team who were chronically bad at keeping the ball and it made us ridiculously predictable (down to management orders, I should add). Any improvement in this regard is welcome.
True, but do ROI have the players who can dominate possession?

Last night you had 47% possession against a moderate team (ranked 56), 52% in Dublin. And barring a pretty awful Bulgaria, your other games have been similar.

Of course it will take time for SK to transform the team, which probably means waiting for the youngsters to come through. But even assuming the FAI gives him that time, and the players are good enough, the big problem with youngsters is that they can lose heart if they are regularly getting beaten during the necessary transition period.

I always think back to Sammy McIlroy's time in charge of NI. The players all liked him, he was always enthusiastic and tried to play an attacking brand of football, but in the end the players lost confidence in him, then in themselves. And bringing in new/young players (often to replace senior players who'd stopped turning up) made no difference either.

By contrast, even when Michael O'Neill wasn't getting results in his early days, he never "lost the dressing room", primarily because the core of his team stuck with him. The crucial factor being that these were the senior guys like Davis, Evans, McAuley, Brunt and Hughes etc - the younger guys followed their lead.


Edited by Territorial - 15 Oct 2020 at 5:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Correct, but a team who dominates the ball, more often than not, will increase their chances of winning. There will always be exceptions to that but they are in the minority of cases.

We had a team who were chronically bad at keeping the ball and it made us ridiculously predictable (down to management orders, I should add). Any improvement in this regard is welcome.
True, but do ROI have the players who can dominate possession?

Last night you had 47% possession against a moderate team (ranked 56), 52% in Dublin. And barring a pretty awful Bulgaria, your other games have been similar.

Of course it will take time for SK to transform the team, which probably means waiting for the youngsters to come through. But even assuming the FAI gives him that time, and the players are good enough, the big problem with youngsters is that they can lose heart if they are regularly getting beaten during the necessary transition period.

I always think back to Sammy McIlroy's time in charge of NI. The players all liked him, he was always enthusiastic and tried to play an attacking brand of football, but in the end the players lost confidence in him, then in themselves. And bringing in new/young players (often to replace senior players who'd stopped turning up) made no difference either.

By contrast, even when Michael O'Neill wasn't getting results in his early days, he never "lost the dressing room", primarily because the core of his team stuck with him. The crucial factor being that these were the senior guys like Davis, Evans, McAuley, Brunt and Hughes etc - the younger guys followed their lead.

Sammy McIlroys team would be around 2004/2005 ?? 
Most players now are coached a more technical style of football. 
Young or Old, they want to express themselves and the way you do that is with the ball... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by Bru Bru wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by MayoMark MayoMark wrote:

Correct, but a team who dominates the ball, more often than not, will increase their chances of winning. There will always be exceptions to that but they are in the minority of cases.

We had a team who were chronically bad at keeping the ball and it made us ridiculously predictable (down to management orders, I should add). Any improvement in this regard is welcome.
True, but do ROI have the players who can dominate possession?

Last night you had 47% possession against a moderate team (ranked 56), 52% in Dublin. And barring a pretty awful Bulgaria, your other games have been similar.

Of course it will take time for SK to transform the team, which probably means waiting for the youngsters to come through. But even assuming the FAI gives him that time, and the players are good enough, the big problem with youngsters is that they can lose heart if they are regularly getting beaten during the necessary transition period.

I always think back to Sammy McIlroy's time in charge of NI. The players all liked him, he was always enthusiastic and tried to play an attacking brand of football, but in the end the players lost confidence in him, then in themselves. And bringing in new/young players (often to replace senior players who'd stopped turning up) made no difference either.

By contrast, even when Michael O'Neill wasn't getting results in his early days, he never "lost the dressing room", primarily because the core of his team stuck with him. The crucial factor being that these were the senior guys like Davis, Evans, McAuley, Brunt and Hughes etc - the younger guys followed their lead.

Sammy McIlroys team would be around 2004/2005 ?? 
Most players now are coached a more technical style of football. 
Young or Old, they want to express themselves and the way you do that is with the ball... 

Sammy McIlroy was a pretty skilful player himself, a striker-turned-midfielder who learned his game during 11 years and 400 games at Old Trafford (the last player Sir Matt Busby signed for them, in fact).

It wasn't his playing style or principles which hampered him, rather the players eventually concluded he simply wasn't up to the task.

Meanwhile, he was succeeded by Lawrie Sanchez, who significantly improved the team using petty much the same players, but with a style of play which was more Jack Charlton than Pep Guardiola!

Key to this transformation was David Healy, who as another Man U graduate, was a pretty technical player himself. Healy played all through the record-breaking goal drought under McIlroy (1,298 minutes!), but soon started breaking scoring records of the welcome sort under Sanchez.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Providing 2 examples of possession football doesn't translate to a win, villa vs Liverpool and man utd vs Tottenham is a very poor analysis.

Nor did your examples prove anything in themselves either, which was my point.

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.

Which was my next point.

It's like someone boasting that he posseses more books in his library than anyone else.

It means nothing if he hasn't read them all, never mind understood them.

And in any case, ROI's possession stats under SK haven't been anything to write home about, so far at least.





Edited by Territorial - 15 Oct 2020 at 6:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notpropaganda73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Have we ever had a period as fans where there aren't some cohort just moaning all the f**king time no matter what is happening on or off the pitch. Christ the night

I'm convinced some folks can't remember what happened last week never mind what was happening under Mick or MON. "This won't work", well the other way wasn't f**king working either. I've actually enjoyed the last three games apart from the results, it's nice to get excited as your players play a few simple one-twos to create some space and get a shot off now and again instead of just hoofing things and hoping we win a freekick or corner. I think there's been an obvious improvement especially from the first Finland game which was very poor.

Give Kenny the WC qualifying campaign and let's see how we go. No doubt there is an army who says we "can't afford to lose a qualifying campaign" or some other nonsense, well f**king news flash we already lost the first Nations League and the Euro 2020 qualifying campaign because of our last two managers so I'm willing to give this fella a go with the youngsters.

Knight was only on briefly but I liked the look of him

I would agree with this somewhat but by the same token zero goals and zero wins in the first 5 games is not great. It has been good to see us actually play some decent stuff but to be honest I would prefer hoof ball and results a la MON 2015-16 rather than good football and nothing to show for it. I hope we can get the balance right.

I 100% agree with you, I want to see goals and results but I can see that there is a change of style happening so I'm not expecting things to happen overnight. What I get frustrated with is a run of poor results and people are saying to sack it all off, when jesus christ we have played horrible stuff for a long time and no results to show for that either. At least *try* something different and give it a chance. 

The fact you have to go back 4/5 years for the last time we had the right balance of sh*te football/good results is an indicator that maybe give the good football/bad results a little bit of time to see if those results can improve. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notpropaganda73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.


The frustrating part of this point for me is that had Hourihane or Browne put away their chances against Slovakia, nobody would be labouring this point. We have created chances with this style of play, we need to finish them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Claret Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 11:29am
Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Better teams control the ball...

... first, then do something constructive with it next.


The frustrating part of this point for me is that had Hourihane or Browne put away their chances against Slovakia, nobody would be labouring this point. We have created chances with this style of play, we need to finish them. 
 
You are so right NP as how many times have you heard someone saying fine margins , close to every weekend . The goal at Villa Park when playing Sheff Utd that was a goal and it kept Villa up and look at them at the moment .
But if you keep falling on the wrong side of the line offten enough you lose your job .
Football is about results , now i know lots on this thread think otherwise but that's what it comes down to .
You are only as good as your last match also .
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