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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maccatacca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 2:26pm
Looking through most half-decent international teams at the moment you don't need anything close to a team of Premier League regulars to be of a good standard.

If we had one defender, one midfielder and one striker who were playing regularly and were one of the main men for their clubs, then we would be laughing.

What we lack along with quality, is a player or two who is used to bearing responsibility at club level, i.e. a Robbie Keane who popped up with goals for Spurs whenever called upon. 

All of our current squad are completely dispensable at club level. Would any of their club teams be worse off if they sold one of our players, or if they got injured?

It pains me to say it, but it's two or three players of Declan Rice's standard, or James Maddison, Patrick Bamford etc who we really need.

Decent higher-midtable players who are used to pressure at club level and who improve the performance levels of the stop-gap players around them. 

Look at some of the sh*te that has lined out for Wales alongside Bale and Ramsey over the years.

If you added those three players to our current squad, we'd have a decent chance of qualifying for competitions regularly. 





Edited by Maccatacca - 07 Apr 2021 at 2:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 2:50pm
Look at Scotland now.  We were on a par with them in 2015 but as our older players have got worse their 93 to 98 born players have come through at Liverpool man utd and villa etc with a decent supporting cast from Celtic etc. 



Edited by Baldrick - 07 Apr 2021 at 2:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:


Should be able to put that together, let me get back to you

Thanks!

Originally posted by Maccatacca Maccatacca wrote:

Looking through most half-decent international teams at the moment you don't need anything close to a team of Premier League regulars to be of a good standard.

If we had one defender, one midfielder and one striker who were playing regularly and were one of the main men for their clubs, then we would be laughing.

What we lack along with quality, is a player or two who is used to bearing responsibility at club level, i.e. a Robbie Keane who popped up with goals for Spurs whenever called upon. 

All of our current squad are completely dispensable at club level. Would any of their club teams be worse off if they sold one of our players, or if they got injured?

It pains me to say it, but it's two or three players of Declan Rice's standard, or James Maddison, Patrick Bamford etc who we really need.

Decent higher-midtable players who are used to pressure at club level and who improve the performance levels of the stop-gap players around them. 

Look at some of the sh*te that has lined out for Wales alongside Bale and Ramsey over the years.

If you added those three players to our current squad, we'd have a decent chance of qualifying for competitions regularly. 


Would agree with pretty much all of that. If say one of Kelleher and Bazunu in goal, two of O'Shea, Collins and Omobamidele at centre back, Knight in midfield and even just one of our young forwards went on to become quality EPL players (by that I mean Given/Dunne/John O'Shea/Doyle standard players) it would put us in a very good position and we'd fill out the team comfortably enough from there to have a pretty good side.

Rice was unquestionably a huge loss though, out of all the decent players we have emerging lately I'm not sure we have one that has the potential that he has relative to his age. Collins might be the nearest but Rice would be rated well ahead of him at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 3:00pm
Rice and Grealish are huge losses but that’s life and from a career point of view you can’t argue their choice.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maccatacca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:


Should be able to put that together, let me get back to you

Thanks!

Originally posted by Maccatacca Maccatacca wrote:

Looking through most half-decent international teams at the moment you don't need anything close to a team of Premier League regulars to be of a good standard.

If we had one defender, one midfielder and one striker who were playing regularly and were one of the main men for their clubs, then we would be laughing.

What we lack along with quality, is a player or two who is used to bearing responsibility at club level, i.e. a Robbie Keane who popped up with goals for Spurs whenever called upon. 

All of our current squad are completely dispensable at club level. Would any of their club teams be worse off if they sold one of our players, or if they got injured?

It pains me to say it, but it's two or three players of Declan Rice's standard, or James Maddison, Patrick Bamford etc who we really need.

Decent higher-midtable players who are used to pressure at club level and who improve the performance levels of the stop-gap players around them. 

Look at some of the sh*te that has lined out for Wales alongside Bale and Ramsey over the years.

If you added those three players to our current squad, we'd have a decent chance of qualifying for competitions regularly. 


Would agree with pretty much all of that. If say one of Kelleher and Bazunu in goal, two of O'Shea, Collins and Omobamidele at centre back, Knight in midfield and even just one of our young forwards went on to become quality EPL players (by that I mean Given/Dunne/John O'Shea/Doyle standard players) it would put us in a very good position and we'd fill out the team comfortably enough from there to have a pretty good side.

Rice was unquestionably a huge loss though, out of all the decent players we have emerging lately I'm not sure we have one that has the potential that he has relative to his age. Collins might be the nearest but Rice would be rated well ahead of him at the moment.

For me it's all about potential partnerships you can make on the pitch by selecting talented players alongside relatively average players. 

For example, John O'Shea or Richard Dunne often made Sean St Ledger look decent for Ireland in a partnership at the back. St Ledger was very average player but was always beside a very experienced player so rarely let us down.

I hate to keep using him as an example, but if you had Rice in our midfield, then the pressure is off the likes of Hourihane or Browne (won't stretch it to Hendrick) and they can play with a bit more freedom to go and try to create chances. 

If you had a prime Robbie Keane up front you could partner him with an Idah or Parrott and allow the young lads the time to try and find their feet at international level. Whereas Kenny gave Idah his debut as a lone striker and the onus was then on him to become the goal scorer straight off the bat. 

There's no one in the team to show these young lads how to win games, or who is used to rising to an occasion and being the top dog for their club.

As much as I can't stand Wales and Scotland, they've both got players at clubs such as Juventus, Spurs (Madrid), Manchester United, Liverpool and even Celtic, where these lads are learning to win every week. 

Just a sprinkling is all we need, three or four players who could consistently play for the likes of Spurs or Everton and consistently be amongst their best players every season, the rest of our team would improve by their presence alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Incidentally the subs in that game were Alan O'Brien, Aiden McGeady and Stephen Elliott.

I mean we can usually put out an 11 that are premier league players if we want to, we could do that this season even - Randolph, Egan, Clark, Coleman, Doherty, Stevens, McCarthy, Hendrick, Brady, Connolly, Robinson would be a 3-5-2 of players that have played a reasonable amount in the league this season. But that's not really the point I'm making though, the issue is that people are suggesting that if, say, Jayson Molumby's level is ultimately a high end Championship player that's no use to us - that's not the case, we have always used Championship level players to good effect and been relatively successful while doing so. 

If we can get a spine of a team playing at a good level consistently in the premier league (or an equivalent European league) we can build the team around that without needing every player to go on to be a 10 season EPL stalwart.

Incidentally, if you have the info, I would be interested to know when was the last time we played an international match with all players including used subs coming from Premier League teams. Not to make a point or anything, just more out of curiousity?

I think it's the 1-1 draw with Israel in March 2005
Shay Given(Newcastle Utd)
John O'Shea(Manchester United)
Andy O'Brien(Newcastle Utd)
Kenny Cunningham(Birmingham City)
Stephen Carr(Newcastle Utd)
Kevin Kilbane(Everton)
Roy Keane(Manchester United)
Steve Finnan(Liverpool)
Damien Duff(Chelsea)
Clinton Morrison(Birmingham City)
Robbie Keane(Tottenham)

Matt Holland, then with Chalrton, came on for Clinton Morrison with five minutes to go

I wrote an article about all-Premier League XIs a few years ago: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/Blog?id=156508102060980330

All goals, yellow & red cards posted in real time on twitter and facebook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amccarten313 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 4:27pm
good to see an 18 yr old taking his chance and looking so comfortable for a team playing so well. hopefully he gets a few more games before the end of the year, maybe a loan next year would do him well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banjaxed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 4:28pm
The standard of international football is more often than not vastly overrated. If we had another three really good players coming through in key areas of the pitch, we could easily compete with most teams outside the top 10 in the world. 

You'd have to assume one of these players coming through is a striker, but it's fine margins in international football. A relatively settled team who's well drilled and knows exactly what they're doing can go quite far in international football.

A few good players come along at the same time and suddenly your fortunes can change very quickly in international football. The fact is it's been 20 years since we've had a few good players coming along at same time our current state shows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevin100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Look at Scotland now.  We were on a par with them in 2015 but as our older players have got worse their 93 to 98 born players have come through at Liverpool man utd and villa etc with a decent supporting cast from Celtic etc. 

 


This comes back to the point it’s going to take 4/5 years for the younger lads like an Idah Collins Kelleher let’s say to name 3 to get to that level if they do at all.

Scotland are a great example. Ireland and Scotland have had 19 players get PL minutes this season identical 

Only 3 Irish players players between the ages of 23-28 have seen PL football this year for us Egan Robinson Dunne. 

Scotland in contrast have 8 between 23-28 in the League. Mctominay Robertson McGinn Tierney Adam’s etc included. 

We have 7 lads 22 or under that have seen PL game time compared to Scotland’s 2. That’s the difference basically we stopped producing players the last decade due to off the field neglect and it’s showing.


Edited by kevin100 - 07 Apr 2021 at 4:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 4:31pm
exactly and the sooner people realise that the better.  Kenny has to show signs of progress before the end of his contracted to be trusted with the job of managing these lads as they come into their prime years. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevin100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 4:36pm
Personally I don’t think Kenny will be the man long term from what I see but I’d be happy to see him play the summer and September games and have us try to continue with the style of play etc blood some of the younger players. 

If the results improve wholesale then yes obviously that would be a different conversation. 


Edited by kevin100 - 07 Apr 2021 at 4:37pm
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As I said, I think even a really solid good finisher playing at good level would make a massive difference to us, maybe we wouldn't beat the likes of Portugal but we be winning more games against teams on par or below us.i would be offering Liam delap a starting position for the next qualifier if I was Kenny. He probably wouldn't except it anyway
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banjaxed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by aviva8 aviva8 wrote:

As I said, I think even a really solid good finisher playing at good level would make a massive difference to us, maybe we wouldn't beat the likes of Portugal but we be winning more games against teams on par or below us.i would be offering Liam delap a starting position for the next qualifier if I was Kenny. He probably wouldn't except it anyway

Delap won't be playing for us, but like all our young hopefuls the last 24 months, caution is needed.

Troy was drafted into the Spurs team summer of 2019 under Poch. Had a great showing in Asian tournament. Can barely hit a barn door in League 1 now.
 
Delap is no different. I'll believe it when I see it. Until a player performs consistently at a high level, then we can start waxing lyrical about them. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by kevin100 kevin100 wrote:

Personally I don’t think Kenny will be the man long term from what I see but I’d be happy to see him play the summer and September games and have us try to continue with the style of play etc blood some of the younger players. 

If the results improve wholesale then yes obviously that would be a different conversation. 

I feel that, unfortunately for Kenny, it will be the next manager who benefits from Kenny's work here and Kenny knows that.

As the old saying goes, 'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they will never sit in.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 12:32am
Originally posted by kevin100 kevin100 wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


 


Looking at transfermarkts current stats 19 Irish player have played PL football this year. What’s damning is only 3 of them are aged between 23-28. Egan Robinson and Dunne. We have 6 under 22 and 10 players 29 or over. Surely the middle aged lads should be higher and the younger ages lower?

The way it’s going we could easily be waiting until Caoimhin Kelleher turns 23 in November before we have a player between 23-28 in a PL squad unless Manning goes up with Swansea or a player is signed. That’s what I mean by it may get worse looking before it gets better. 

Yes for sure we have no idea who will end up where. Hourihane was playing L2 football in his early 20s as were Egan Stevens Randolph I think too. 

I noted the same thing a while back. There's literally not a single Republic of Ireland born player in a Premier league first team squad within an entire six year cycle (excluding Dunne's two appearances back at the beginning of the season) This must be entirely unprecedented in the history of the Premier League and even the first division that preceded it. This corresponds to the exact generation that should be the core of our team now and coming to their peak, and its just a black hole. 
Watching our  Under-21's numerous times during the latter part of Don Givens reign and the early part of Noel King's it was abundantly obvious that Grealish and Rice were the only players involved that had much hope of making top international performers, and both had more appealing options of course. The remainder looked like Championship players to be at best, and so it has proven. Everyone on here was laying the blame for the team's failure pretty much squarely on the managers, and while its obvious King at least barely had the interest in winning matches , let alone the competence (more interested in earning his bounty for picking lower league granny rulers) it was overlooking the fact the talent just wasn't there and that is why we are in the position we are now in world football. I actually pity Kenny, or anyone else who takes the job on. Our players are always (or at least usually) far overrated by Ireland fans so no manager can expect to fulfil public expectations, fuelled by the glory of the Charlton years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevin100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

Originally posted by kevin100 kevin100 wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


 


Looking at transfermarkts current stats 19 Irish player have played PL football this year. What’s damning is only 3 of them are aged between 23-28. Egan Robinson and Dunne. We have 6 under 22 and 10 players 29 or over. Surely the middle aged lads should be higher and the younger ages lower?

The way it’s going we could easily be waiting until Caoimhin Kelleher turns 23 in November before we have a player between 23-28 in a PL squad unless Manning goes up with Swansea or a player is signed. That’s what I mean by it may get worse looking before it gets better. 

Yes for sure we have no idea who will end up where. Hourihane was playing L2 football in his early 20s as were Egan Stevens Randolph I think too. 

I noted the same thing a while back. There's literally not a single Republic of Ireland born player in a Premier league first team squad within an entire six year cycle (excluding Dunne's two appearances back at the beginning of the season) This must be entirely unprecedented in the history of the Premier League and even the first division that preceded it. This corresponds to the exact generation that should be the core of our team now and coming to their peak, and its just a black hole. 
Watching our  Under-21's numerous times during the latter part of Don Givens reign and the early part of Noel King's it was abundantly obvious that Grealish and Rice were the only players involved that had much hope of making top international performers, and both had more appealing options of course. The remainder looked like Championship players to be at best, and so it has proven. Everyone on here was laying the blame for the team's failure pretty much squarely on the managers, and while its obvious King at least barely had the interest in winning matches , let alone the competence (more interested in earning his bounty for picking lower league granny rulers) it was overlooking the fact the talent just wasn't there and that is why we are in the position we are now in world football. I actually pity Kenny, or anyone else who takes the job on. Our players are always (or at least usually) far overrated by Ireland fans so no manager can expect to fulfil public expectations, fuelled by the glory of the Charlton years.
 

Yes this sums it up. Take homegrown options our
Goalkeepers: Randolph Westwood Kelleher Bazunu Travers 
Attackers: Long Maguire Idah Connolly Parrott Obafemi 

Common denominator bar Maguire your talking a decade between Randolph,Long and the younger lads. A reflection of the off the field sh*t.

Maguire Horgan Curtis Browne Manning Lenihan they are the homegrown options between 23-28. No PL potential player in there bar possibly Manning at a push.
Egan of course tops the list a fine player hes 28 at the moment. Even granny rulers Robinson and Cullen is making great strides the two stand outs. 

What we are left with now is player pushing on, or out of form/going off the boil and Kennys original U21s. 

 





Edited by kevin100 - 08 Apr 2021 at 1:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 2:48am
Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

The standard of international football is more often than not vastly overrated. If we had another three really good players coming through in key areas of the pitch, we could easily compete with most teams outside the top 10 in the world. 

You'd have to assume one of these players coming through is a striker, but it's fine margins in international football. A relatively settled team who's well drilled and knows exactly what they're doing can go quite far in international football.

A few good players come along at the same time and suddenly your fortunes can change very quickly in international football. The fact is it's been 20 years since we've had a few good players coming along at same time our current state shows.
You make good points. We'll always produce useful players like Molumby, Maguire, Cullen, Browne, probably Connolly and Parrott but, like you indicate, we're missing quality - two or three capable of making a difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Landsdowne90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 5:20pm
started again today and another clean sheet for Norwich
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