Why are Southern English such sh*t managers? |
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sid waddell
Roy Keane On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 1:48am |
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There is a geographical line in Britain, a sort of managerial Hadrian's Wall, that separates the managerial country north of it from the non-managerial country south of it.
It stretches from Ellesmere Port at the mouth of the Mersey in the west, skirts north of Manchester and then follows the M62 and skirts back around the southern border of Yorkshire, before making for the coast just south of Scarborough. Every great British manager comes from north of this line. The Scotch are, pound for pound, the greatest football managerial nation on earth. The great English managers were all northern. Clough and Revie were from Middlesbrough. Herbert Chapman was from Scarborough. Stan Cullis was from Ellesmere Port. Joe Fagan was more Scouse than Yosser Hughes. Bill Nicholson was a Yorkshire man. Wor Bobby and Wor Jackie were from north east mining country. As was the greatest of all English managers, Bob Paisley. Even the last English manager to win the league, Howard Wilkinson, was from Yorkshire. But, you may say, Alf Ramsey won the World Cup, and he was from Dagenham. Alf Ramsey was a jammy git who got lucky in one season with Ipswich and with England was blessed with a load of gifted northerners and a jammy git from West Ham and a dodgy Russian linesman. He ended up making a tool of himself in the next two World Cups when he threw away a 2-0 lead against Germany in '70 and then failed to qualify at all in '73.. Alf Ramsey was not a great manager. Alf Ramsey was also widely regarded as a patrician dickhead. What is it about managers from south of this line that precludes them from greatness? Is it that they are essentially spivs, that they are essentially Del Boy? Malcolm Allison, Terry Venables, Glenn Hoddle, Harry Redknapp, Barry Fry, Alan Pardew, Frank Lampard - would you trust these men? As Frank would say, no, but seriously, would you trust them? Is there an essential difference in trustworthiness between wideboys who you know vote Tory, and old school Scotch and northern socialists born into a tradition of working with your hands - shipbuilding, steel working, coal mining - putting your body on the line to earn a wage, men you knew came up the hard way? But now there is no more shipbuilding, steelworking or coal mining. And thus, no more grizzled Scotch and northern football men like this. All we have left are the muck and bullets of Chris Wilder and Neil Warnock. And British football managerial greatness has ceased to exist. The managerial Hadrian's Wall has moved south to the English Channel, to meet Brexit. Edited by sid waddell - 20 Jul 2020 at 1:53am |
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Gary McKay
Roy Keane Yo Adrian Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 13816 |
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Linesman was from Georgia
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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex
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ErsatzThistle
Liam Brady Joined: 05 Nov 2013 Location: Glasgow Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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I didn't know until recently that Alf Ramsey was born into poverty but nonetheless spent most of his adult life ashamed of it and did everything he could to cover up his very humble origins. He even went to the extent of taking elocution lessons to get rid of his original working class Essex accent.
Strange chap. He allegedly* had some Romani ancestry and would get very angry if it was ever mentioned. *It's never actually been proved.
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coyne
Paul McGrath Joined: 17 Aug 2013 Location: Sunderland Status: Offline Points: 15881 |
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Let's not forget Jack Charlton was also from the North East!
People born in the north are more likely to be born into poorer and working class conditions than the south, the imaginary border you made are all working class towns and cities, except from Durham and York. Down South it's very sporadic, some boroughs of London, Swindon. People born into poorer conditions develop different characteristics than those who are not, the same applies to combat sports also, I can't even think of a fighter in either Boxing or MMA who grew up with a lavish lifestyle. But those who grew up in poorer conditions tend to develop more grit and heart and the ones who didn't It's a dying breed also because people from poor backgrounds can't afford the Coaching Badges unless you become a professional footballer - All 5 badges including the UEFA ones cost over £10,000. It's not a desired career path
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fr larry duff
500 Club la la la Joined: 04 Feb 2009 Status: Offline Points: 747 |
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Chris Eubank Jr springs to mind, all top hats and monocles in his house!
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The Huntacha
Roy Keane Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Location: Dubai Status: Offline Points: 12760 |
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Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
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NewtNewbie
Liam Brady Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Status: Offline Points: 2416 |
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I see the brilliant, up-and-coming Eddie Howe has been overlooked. Tsk!
Edited by NewtNewbie - 20 Jul 2020 at 8:32pm |
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sid waddell
Roy Keane On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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Let's say the line is loosely based on the M62. There was and is plenty of poverty in the south and midlands of England. Yet there has never been a truly great British managerial figure from outside Scotland or the north of England. In fact you can really narrow it down to two particular geographical areas - Glasgow/Lanarkshire and the north east from Ashington down to Middlesbrough. The rest of the north of England produced some fine football men but it's the above two areas that produced the truly great football men. Is it politics as a result of upbringing? Is it accent? Like, can a Tory carry a group of football players with him? I think the answer is no. In the post war period, it's remarkable how few league title winning managers came from south of the line. Arthur Rowe of Tottenham in 1951, Ted Drake of Chelsea in 1955, Alf Ramsey of Ipswich in 1962, Bertie Mee of Arsenal in 1971, Ron Saunders of Aston Villa in 1981, to the best of my knowledge they are the only league-title winning managers from below the line. None won more than one title. Up to Arsene Wenger in 1998 when continental managers started to win, all other league title winners since the war were from north of the line. Is the decline of public education in England and the rise of Thatcher and market ideology a factor in the decline not just of great British managers, but of British football in general? Scotland and the north east don't really produce players any more. Edited by sid waddell - 20 Jul 2020 at 8:39pm |
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coyne
Paul McGrath Joined: 17 Aug 2013 Location: Sunderland Status: Offline Points: 15881 |
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I think this correlates more with my last paragraph with affordability. No high standard of coaching -> Players don't reach their high potential -> They don't get into the professional game -> They don't persue a career into coaching afterwards As you say narrow your border to just Middlesbrough and you just have Steve Bruce and Nigel Clough managing at a professional level, the so-called Best Premier League Manager of all time John Carver didn't quite make it even in the Cypriot leagues And at a player level you only have Pickford, Henderson, Sean Longstaff and Billy Gilmour and Andrew Robertson up in Scotland so the turnover is extremely low for such a large portion of the UK. The FA bang on about having more coaches at grassroot level but when you're needing to fork out £5k for the 3 FA badges there's absolutely zero incentive to do it despite how passionate you are, it's upto the FA to break the cycle. I'm not saying people who live in the south are spoon-fed but for starters they do have a higher living wage P/H so they don't always go through the same desperate times people who live in the North do who gain different skillsets and attributes I mentioned before.
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Gary McKay
Roy Keane Yo Adrian Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 13816 |
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Starting salary for an academy coach at Premier League club is approx £20k !!!
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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex
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Mulvanystrasse
Liam Brady Joined: 15 Jan 2012 Location: Boston USA Status: Offline Points: 2015 |
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Ron Saunders was from Merseyside as were 4 of that Aston Villa championship winning team in 1981.
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Flanno7hi
Liam Brady Joined: 26 Jul 2010 Location: Chester Status: Offline Points: 2614 |
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What about Roy Hodgson? He's from London isn't he? He wouldn't be in my list of great managers but he has had a very successful and interesting career.
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