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Who are the REAL big clubs in England?
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sid waddell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Jan 2014 at 10:13pm
Taking history, tradition, success and supporter base into account, these would be my top 15. Thoughts?

1. Liverpool
2. Manchester United
3. Everton
4. Arsenal
5. Nottingham Forest
6. Leeds United
7. Tottenham Hotspur
8. Newcastle United
9. Aston Villa
10. Manchester City
11. Sunderland
12. Wolves
13. West Ham United
14. Sheffield Wednesday
15. Derby County
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1. Liverpool
2. Manchester United
3. Everton
4. Arsenal
5. Newcastle United
6. Leeds United
7. Tottenham Hotspur
8. Nottingham Forest
9. Aston Villa
10. Manchester City
11. Middlesbrough
12. Chelsea
13. West Ham United
14. Sheffield Wednesday
15. Derby County
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Liverpool
Manchester Utd
Nottingham Forest
Arsenal
Harchester Utd
Aston Villa
Wimbledon
Melchester Rovers
Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
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Man Utd
Liverpool
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Spurs
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1. Manchester United
2. Liverpool
3. Arsenal
4. Everton
5. Aston Villa
6. Tottenham Hotspur
7. Newcastle
8. Sunderland
9. Chelsea
10. Manchester City
11. Leeds United
12. West Ham United
13. Wolves
14. Sheffield Wednesday
15. Nottingham Forest
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Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.
Liverpool were already more established as a traditional power when Manchester United started becoming successful in the 1950s. 
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.

Liverpool robbed by corrupt ref in EC semi in 1965 !!!
Would also have won 2 or 3 more ECs during their (self-imposed) 6 year ban in late 80s with their best ever team.
You'd never have heard of Gullit and van Basten

But yes Utd have more fans more money etc so would be considered the biggest club in England without a doubt.
Plus the great Torino team wiped out in 1949 crash (the whole squad) didnt receive the same recognition outside Italy and they never recovered from it.
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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.

Liverpool were already more established as a traditional power when Manchester United started becoming successful in the 1950s. 



Not sure you're right about that but if you are United became worldwide once that plane crashed. As damaging as it was to a team that probably would've won at least one European cup, the crash generated worldwide sympathy and support for the club.Even during the dark days off the 70s United had high attendences
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.
Which United?
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Taking only those factors into account that Sid has mentioned it's definitely

1 Man Utd
2 Liverpool
3 Arsenal

As the top 3 in that order

After that it's arguable

Edited by Roberto Baggio - 30 Jan 2014 at 1:01am
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Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.

Liverpool robbed by corrupt ref in EC semi in 1965 !!!
Would also have won 2 or 3 more ECs during their (self-imposed) 6 year ban in late 80s with their best ever team.
You'd never have heard of Gullit and van Basten

But yes Utd have more fans more money etc so would be considered the biggest club in England without a doubt.
Plus the great Torino team wiped out in 1949 crash (the whole squad) didnt receive the same recognition outside Italy and they never recovered from it.


"Would also have won 2 or 3 more EC's"

You're presuming alot there tbh but sh*t talk aside,Liverpool probably would've won at least one more.That 6 year ban was a disgrace and a completely stupid approach from UEFA imo.

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Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.
Liverpool were already more established as a traditional power when Manchester United started becoming successful in the 1950s. 


Bollocks. They'd not won much until Shankly took charge in 1959. Everton were by far the superior club on Merseyside.
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Think they would have in fairness, the 86 double side would have been unlikely but definitely that 88-90 team would have won at least once. Also Dalglishs transfer dealings may have been more frequent and in depth, so they may not have had such a indifferent 86-87 season with Europe to contend for as well.
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Originally posted by Man from Del Monte Man from Del Monte wrote:

Bollocks. They'd not won much until Shankly took charge in 1959. Everton were by far the superior club on Merseyside.




Both sides had the same amount of League titles by the time Shankly had taken charge

So had Man United
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:



"Would also have won 2 or 3 more EC's"

You're presuming alot there tbh but sh*t talk aside,Liverpool probably would've won at least one more.That 6 year ban was a disgrace and a completely stupid approach from UEFA imo.

I loved Van Basten when I was a young buck

Something which is usually forgotten is that Liverpool were blatantly cheated in the 1985 final against Juventus. Boniek was clearly at least two yards outside the box but the referee blew for a penalty which Platini converted. Then Ronnie Whelan was blatantly hacked down in the box but a penalty was not given. 
 
Everton would likely have won the 1986 European Cup had there been no ban. 

Considering the winners from 1986 to 1988 were Steaua Bucharest, FC Porto and PSV Eindhoven, it's not a bit far fetched to suggest that all three of those competitions might well have been won by either Liverpool or Everton.

AC Milan would have been a tougher challenge but the Liverpool team of 1988-89 would have given it a decent shot at least.


Edited by sid waddell - 30 Jan 2014 at 1:23am
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Originally posted by Man from Del Monte Man from Del Monte wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Not trying to be biased here but United would be considered a bigger club than Liverpool as they were more established years before Liverpools successful era.The ironic thing about the Munich disaster was it gave United worldwide recognition and for a team to win the European cup 10 years later, it was fairytale stuff no matter what you think of United.This was all prior to Liverpool's 70/80s successful period.
Liverpool were already more established as a traditional power when Manchester United started becoming successful in the 1950s. 


Bollocks. They'd not won much until Shankly took charge in 1959. Everton were by far the superior club on Merseyside.


Liverpool had already won five league titles by the time Manchester United won their third in 1952 - Everton had also won five in that time. 

Arsenal (7), Aston Villa (6) and Sunderland (6) were the only clubs who had won more at the time Shankly took over in December 1959.

So it's clearly not bollocks.
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Taking only those factors into account that Sid has mentioned it's definitely

1 Man Utd
2 Liverpool
3 Arsenal

As the top 3 in that order

After that it's arguable
+1 Some amount of bollix being talked about teams that would have won another European cup if..... I think this is the top 3.
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