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We’re not Brasil we’re Tuaisceart Éireann

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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

Why in God’s name would anybody be so anal as to worry about people logged in to any forum for any length of time


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

Why in God’s name would anybody be so anal as to worry about people logged in to any forum for any length of time


It’s rather easy to grasp, I said on the “strange things people do thread” that I find it odd why people can spend all day everyday logged onto a forum and my comment was carried over onto this thread.

It’s like saying why would someone lie about their sex life on a forum to a bunch of strangers, no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 1:55pm
You can choose to believe what you want, no problem there, but you just can’t help coming across as an anal tool
When all is said and done there is nothing left to say or do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 1:58pm
You can appear logged in here without being anywhere near a phone or computer
Saves you having to put your password and username in every time you come on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

You can choose to believe what you want, no problem there, but you just can’t help coming across as an anal tool


You’re the one with the obsession with male genitalia, it’s all you ever talk about.

Idiot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 2:03pm
Why would any normal person bother to trawl through other people’s profiles to see how long they are logged on and then say that it is strange surely that is stranger
When all is said and done there is nothing left to say or do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Green Devil Green Devil wrote:

Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

You can choose to believe what you want, no problem there, but you just can’t help coming across as an anal tool


You’re the one with the obsession with male genitalia, it’s all you ever talk about.

Idiot
You are right you fckin Flute
When all is said and done there is nothing left to say or do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

Why would any normal person bother to trawl through other people’s profiles to see how long they are logged on and then say that it is strange surely that is stranger


Firstly you can’t check how long a person logs on for daily

Secondly as I’ve pointed out, I was talking about in general that I find it odd how people can spend countless hours and hours daily online, not exclusively to YBIG

Every time you turn on the Telly or pick up the paper, peoples over use of the internet and what have you is there in front of you.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irish2011 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 2:13pm
Will the north bring support to Dublin in November?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Irish2011 Irish2011 wrote:

Will the north bring support to Dublin in November?
would reckon a small contingent as they will not want to swell the coffers down here, and they will probably have some sort of protest against the player switch that they think we have been abusing
When all is said and done there is nothing left to say or do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

You can appear logged in here without being anywhere near a phone or computer
Saves you having to put your password and username in every time you come on


That's not the way it works.

     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floreat Ultonia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 2:18pm
 
Originally posted by Irish2011 Irish2011 wrote:

Will the north bring support to Dublin in November?


Originally posted by Dublin Doc Dublin Doc wrote:

would reckon a small contingent as  1 they will not want to swell the coffers down here, and  2 they will probably have some sort of protest against the player switch that they think we have been abusing


3 Much as I enjoy both a trip to Dublin and watching NI I've never had any intention of going to this game. With over-regulated travel, lots of gurriers about and the likelihood of disorder it's just more trouble than worth.

However I will be at the cricket at Malahide in May if anyone fancies refreshments
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

No, I want the FAI lies and hypocrisy to stop.

First of all, there are still people who try to maintain the fiction that the FAI doesn't make the first approach. That much is bull.
Second, I want to see an end to the practice which Michael has identified whereby the FAI are persuading impressionable young players to switch from NI to ROI at a very early age, where they are far more prone to "the numbers game", yet cannot subsequently revert back to NI, where they might get a better chance, should it not work out for them down South.
Third, if the IFA were to reciprocate by only approaching/selecting Prods etc, then we would end up with there being two teams in Ireland, the Prod one and the RC one. As it is, this discriminatory* selection policy of the FAI already gives an impression that such a situation exists.
Finally, I want to see an end to the unfairness of the situation whereby the IFA is the only one of 209(?) member associations of FIFA whereby every single player born within its territory is automatically entitled also to represent another association, without also satisfying the usual ancestral or residential criteria which apply to the other 208.


* - In its precise definition.


OK, I have a bit of time to respond to your posts now at last. Sorry for the delay; I've been busy and your posts are full of so much ill-informed nonsense that it was hard to drag myself back to deal with it all.

Anyway...

John Delaney claimed to the BBC's Mark Carruther's in a 2011 interview that the FAI do not approach the player first, so I assume he was referring to young players in the IFA's youth set-ups. James McClean, Shane Duffy, Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, the Hale brothers and the McEneff brothers are all known to have contacted the FAI rather than the FAI approaching them. Eunan O'Kane (who is actually a humanist) was engaged by the FAI when he was 21 and was of the opinion that "[his] opportunity wasn't going to come playing for Northern Ireland" as he had been out of IFA squads for a spell.

Was Paddy McNair even approached? Michael O'Neill said that the FAI "stayed away from it", so I assumed that meant there was no approach. If an approach was made, however, then the FAI approached a Protestant-background player, which sort of undermines the preposterous sectarianism accusation.

What evidence have you of approaches having been made or that "the FAI are persuading impressionable young players to switch from NI to ROI at a very early age"? If you're going to make a claim like that, back it up with facts and evidence. The general rule appears to be that the players contact the FAI with their interest first. If there are exceptions (and feel free to supply the evidence), maybe it's a case of players who have come through the IFA's youth ranks but haven't been selected by the IFA for a while? I'm not sure, but that seems to have been the case with O'Kane.

Either way, the FAI are entitled to make an enquiry with any eligible Irish national player or any player they feel might be interested in playing for Ireland. This is all within the rules. It's not "nicking", "taking" or "poaching" your players because they are not your players. They are individuals who are also eligible to play for the FAI and perfectly entitled to make themselves available for the FAI.

All players who make the switch make the decision themselves with the help of their families and friends anyway. It is voluntary. It's their choice ultimately and plenty are happy just to be challenging for even one cap for their country rather than racking up dozens of caps for an entity with which they don't culturally identify. The FAI facilitate them in their aspiration. The FAI don't drag them or coerce them. You just have to accept that.

They are eligible for the FAI, so why wouldn't the FAI make it appealing for them and treat them and their families well? Using terms like "inducements" is just your attempt to put a negative spin on things, as if vulnerable kids are being kidnapped with sweets being waved in their faces. The players and their families know the risks involved and they weigh them up against the benefits. If they don't choose your association, that's just too bad. Try harder to sort your own house out instead of pointing the finger elsewhere and blaming others. Frankly, it's embarrassing and pathetic carry-on, this victim-playing.

There is no unfairness. The same rules (articles 5-8) apply across the board to all associations. Only Irish nationals can play for the FAI and only players entitled to British citizenship can play for the IFA. A player born in the north can only play for the FAI so long as he is an Irish national. Is everyone born in the north who is eligible to play for the IFA an Irish national? Of course not. 

I should also point out that the IFA refused in 2007 an extraordinary appeasement offer from FIFA whereby the IFA would have been uniquely permitted to select Irish nationals born south of the border who were not British citizens and who did not possess a territorial connection to the IFA's jurisdiction. You bleat on about a supposed "unfair one-way situation" (even though your understanding of that phrase is a misinterpretation anyway), but it was the IFA who rejected FIFA's offer to try and "resolve" the matter to the IFA's satisfaction. The FAI were actually content to go along with FIFA's proposal.

Why did the IFA reject it? It would have enabled them to select Irish citizens from, say, the Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan Ulster-Scots communities who identity with the IFA's team and with a British or Northern Irish identity rather than with the Irish national identity, even though they're officially Irish citizens from south of the border. (Basil McCrea, Willie Hay, Maurice Devenney and Charley McAdam are just a few names of public figures from this community, in case you're unaware)

The ancestral and residential criteria are not the "usual" criteria and they do not ordinarily apply to the other 210 associations. (There are 211 members of FIFA.) These criteria don't feature in the general principle outlined in article 5 and only come into effect in exceptional cases where associations like your own (and about 30 others out of the 211) share a common nationality with other associations or where a player has acquired a new nationality or become a naturalised citizen of a country for whom he wishes to play.

The FAI isn't a "Catholics only" team. Look through the FAI's various teams and you'll find players from all sorts of diverse backgrounds. You'll even find a few Arabic/Muslim names in there. Also, Alan Kernaghan, Alex Bruce and Adam Barton were of Ulster Protestant heritage. The fact they played for the FAI disproves this notion that the FAI employ a sectarian or "Catholics only" policy. For what it's worth, the FAI also run a scheme similar to the IFA's 'Football For All' programme.

Even if the FAI did select only Catholics (which evidently isn't the case), you'd still have players from Catholic backgrounds playing for the IFA. In fact, this is the case now, despite alleged FAI sectarianism. Niall McGinn and players like him will continue to select the IFA in order to carve out an international level football career because they might not envisage themselves getting a chance with the FAI.

The fact that it is mainly players from Catholic backgrounds in the north who tend to declare for the FAI does not constitute some sort of proof that the FAI are operating a sectarian recruitment policy. Rather, it is an indication that, if the chance arises, players from northern Catholic backgrounds might have a preference or inclination to play for the FAI that is not shared by the vast majority of their counterparts from the Protestant community.

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

 What are you sh*teing on about ? Players have to have a tie the country. Not just a case of us deciding we're selecting the next Messi from Argentina. Taylor had zilch connection to NI. McClean was born on this island.
No, players have to have a tie to the Association, as follows. 

FIFA determined, for reasons which actually had nothing to do with the Irish situation, that the possession of an appropriate nationality automatically from birth is a sufficient tie to an association, since in 90%+ of cases, their member associations correspond only to one country and one nationality. This "from birth" stipulation was essentially to prevent Qatar and Cape Verde giving out passports to Brazilians in order to cap them and worked because Qatar would have had to grant nationality automatically to every Brazilian in order for them to continue to qualify.

And governments do not normally give out passports to people from other countries without demanding something in return.

However, the FAI benefits, pretty much uniquely from what I can see, in that its 'home' government routinely gives out passports to a whole category of people from outside the government's political jurisdiction (and outside the association's territory) who do not satisfy the criteria which the great majority of countries impose in order to qualify (residence, military service, immediate ancestry etc).

That is, they give passports to people from NI (or the children of people from NI), with no other stipulation than that they hand over their €80 (or whatever).

And it is this nearly* unique situation which the FAI is taking advantage of when it caps people who were not born within their territory, or have parents/grandparents who were, or have resided within it.


* - I have a feeling that the Israeli Government may operate something similar for Jews who were born outside Israel? (Unsure)
 

The Irish government is entitled to design its nationality law as it sees fit. The law's application over the entire island was multilaterally-agreed in an international agreement (the GFA) lodged with the UN. It is entirely legitimate and valid. You only expose your bigotry when you take issue with it.

Plenty of governments give out nationality to people born in other states on a 'jus sanguinis' basis. Turkey is an example of another state that does so on a combined 'jus soli' basis, just like the Irish government does.

Nationality by birthright is as close a legal tie as you can get to a nation-state. The Irish government does not hand out passports to northerners for footballing reasons; it provides them with passports when they apply for them because they are Irish nationals by birth. Raising the Qatar case is irrelevant as that related to the naturalisation of (Brazilian) players. Irish nationals born in the north are not naturalised Irish citizens; they are Irish citizens from birth.

What's this "from birth" stipulation you're talking about? FIFA introduced extra or secondary criteria in 2004 in order to deal with players who might have been naturalised by a country in order to play football for that country's association, as mentioned above in respect of the Qatar case. The extra criteria (now found in article 7) were intended to stamp out abuse of the general rule which literally allowed any player in possession of a nationality to play for the association representing that nationality (so some countries saw the chance to exploit this until FIFA caught on and released Circular Letter 901 to halt the practice).

Edited by Danny Invincible - 21 Mar 2018 at 4:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

When a player possesses dual/several nationality, if he wishes to represent an Association other than the one within whose territory he was born, then as well as demonstrating his possession or acquisition of the appropriate other nationality, as evidenced by a passport, he ALSO has to demonstrate some sort of link to the other Association (residence or ancestry etc).


Your interpretation of the rules is way off here. You're getting very, very confused. When a player possesses a shared nationality (which is not the same thing as possessing dual or multiple nationalities), article 6 applies to him and he has to satisfy one of the four criteria therein. Irish nationality is not a shared nationality because Irish nationality permits a player to play for the FAI only. When a player possesses dual nationality or multiple nationalities (from birth), only article 5 need apply, unless one of those nationalities is a nationality that is shared by more than one association (meaning article 6 will come into effect for that nationality of which he is in possession).

I'll use a player like goalkeeper Sean McDermott to explain my point. His father is from Donegal. He was born in Norway. His mother is Norwegian. He possesses both the Irish and Norwegian nationalities from birth. He has played for the FAI from under-17 though to under-21 level. He qualified to play for the FAI under article 5. Article 6 (and its criteria) were not invoked because Irish nationality is not a nationality that is shared by multiple associations. It is the nationality of only the FAI. His Norwegian nationality is an entirely separate nationality and, just because he might have possessed it along with his Irish nationality, it didn't mean that article 6 was invoked. Article 7 was not invoked either because he didn't naturalise as an Irish national nor did he newly acquire his Irish nationality; he has been an Irish national from birth. If McDermott had wanted to play for Norway, he would also have qualified to play for them under simply article 5. As it happens, if he wishes to play for them now after having already represented the FAI, he would have to request a switch via article 8.

This is all very clearly explained in the Kearns judgment. You should read it again and have another read over the eligibility rules whilst you're at it. Honestly. It'll save both of us an awful lot of time because it means you can stop posting complete and utter rubbish and I won't have to keep correcting it.

Quote That principle applies to (I think) 210 of the Member Associations of FIFA, with the sole exception being the FAI (when it comes to capping NI-born players). The corollary being that we (NI/IFA) are the only association where every single player born within our territory is also automatically eligible for another Association without an additional ancestral or residential requirement.
  

Not true. As I asked above, is everyone born in the north who is eligible to play for the IFA an Irish national? Are you an Irish national? No, you're not. Therefore, you're not eligible to play for the FAI. Only Irish nationals are eligible to play for the FAI.

Quote And it is this inequality which FIFA themselves observed to be "unfair" on us.


There is no inequality. Someone clearly sympathetic to the IFA's cause in the BBC cherry-picked the "unfair" phrase from the Kearns judgment - an apparent morsel of light in an otherwise resounding, comprehensive and damning rejection of the IFA's case - and wrote an article based on their misinterpretation of what CAS was actually saying, but CAS didn't interpret the application of the present regulations as being unfair on the IFA, nor do FIFA observe it to be unfair.

Let's be clear; in March of 2007, FIFA provisionally viewed the right of Irish nationals born north of the border to play for the FAI as exposing the IFA to a "one-way situation". This was at a point in time when FIFA clearly didn't fully understand the nature of the island-wide application of the birthright to Irish nationality in Irish nationality law, which is presumably why you had Demot Ahern, for example, engaging with FIFA around then to clarify matters for them on behalf of the Irish government (who, of course, legislate for Irish nationality). 

CAS, summarising or paraphrasing (
in paragraph 70 of the Kearns judgment) what the panel understood the FIFA position to have been at the time (before FIFA reached a more informed comprehension), interpreted FIFA as having viewed this supposed situation as "unfair" on the IFA. FIFA never described anything as "unfair" themselves though. Look for what you're claiming in the Kearns judgment; you certainly won't find it. 

After later analysing the matter in greater and more thorough detail at the end of 2007, FIFA came to the conclusion that their existing statutes were in fact sufficient to deal with the matter of Irish player eligibility. This is the situation as it stands now. I think it is then fair to say they acknowledged their statutes were operating as intended and this suggestion now that either FIFA or CAS believe there to be an "unfair 'one-way situation'" in effect is grossly inaccurate and no longer applicable, if it was ever meaningfully applicable at all.

Haven't the IFA benefited from players switching in the opposite direction anyway? 


Quote Which leads to the question, why are we subjected to this situation? As you well know, the key change to FIFA's rules came a few years back when Qatar and Cape Verde etc started giving nationality (and no doubt money) to Brazilian footballers with no other connection to those countries, in order to be able to cap them. 

So in order to remedy/clarify the situation, FIFA rushed through an amendment, basically requiring that if nationality is to be used for eligibility purposes, then that nationality has to be one to which the applicant is/was entitled to automatically from birth.


Honestly, just read the Kearns judgment again and spare me. CAS were very clear that that episode has absolutely no bearing on our situation. You're mistaken as to what that episode entailed anyway. The change that FIFA brought in via Circular Letter 901 was to provisionally introduce the criteria that now make up article 7 for naturalised players (birth, parentage, grandparentage or residence in/from the territory of the relevant association). That change was carefully thought out and wasn't hastily "rushed through", as evidenced by the fact that it became part of the formal rules upon the next official update.

Irish nationals born in the north have been eligible to play for the FAI long before the Qatar episode in 2004.

You're not "subjected" to anything. The same rules (articles 5-8) that apply to you apply to everyone else. You just like to play the victims.

Quote Which is where ROI/FAI comes in. The vast majority of countries do not accord citizenship automatically to people who were born outside their jurisdiction unless they can also demonstrate some sort of other connection with their state - ancestry, ethnicity, military service, former colonial status etc etc etc.

Except that (for purely political, i.e. non-footballing, reasons) the ROI government accords such citizenship to everyone born in NI, outside their jurisdiction, no other questions asked. This is contrary to the usual practice, whereby other countries are invariably much more discriminating and restrictive to granting citizenship to people born elsewhere.


Irish nationality does not extend island-wide for "purely political" purposes. It extends island-wide for legal and cultural purposes also; because the Irish nation extends across the entire island.

Whatever about "usual practice", Irish nationality law is legitimate and the Irish government, as a sovereign entity, are entitled to design it as they see fit. The electorate in the north and the British government also approved of its island-wide effect, as of the GFA. If you have an issue with it, as I said above, you're simply exposing your bigotry.

Quote Therefore we have a situation where FIFA needed to solve a problem involving Qatar/Brazil etc, took the easiest solution off-the-shelf (governments granting passport rights from birth) and applied it to their own footballing situation, job done.


You haven't a clue what you're talking about. Go and have a read of the content of Circular Letter 901. It's substantive content is actually quoted in the CAS case; they dismiss its relevance because the IFA seemed to, like yourself, bizarrely believe it had some application or relevance too back then, but that Qatar situation has nothing to do with our situation. How do you explain northerners like Mark McKeever, Gerard Doherty and Ger Crossley playing for the FAI before 2004 if you think Circular Letter 901 is the root of northerners' eligibility to play for the FAI? Circular Letter 901 has nothing to do with the eligibility of northern-born Irish nationals to play for the FAI.

Irish nationality has extended island-wide since 1956, so northerners have been eligible in principle to play for the FAI since then. Even in May of 1994, FIFA acknowledged in a meeting of its Players' Status Committee in Zurich that northerners were eligible to play for the FAI after the IFA raised concerns, presumably arising from the fact that Alan Kernaghan and Jason McAteer were able to play for the FAI via their northern heritage. The minutes from this meeting are quoted at paragraph 58 in the Kearns judgment. The eligibility rule at the time was brought into effect at the 33rd FIFA Congress in Santiago in 1962 and was eventually replaced in 2004, before the additional criteria were added a few months later to halt naturalisations of convenience after Qatar tried to naturalise the Brazilians for footballing purposes, as has been mentioned.

The crucial rule-change as far as our situation is concerned was FIFA's introduction in 2004 of a right for dual or multi-eligible players to switch association once so long as they were under 21 and had not yet played a competitive game for their original association. That meant that players no longer became cap-tied to an association by merely playing youth football for that association. The age limit of 21 was lifted completely in 2009. It was as a result of this rule-change that you began to see greater activity in terms of players switching between IFA and FAI, obviously because youth caps for the IFA were no longer tying them down. I suspect the GFA and IFA's outrage also raised awareness of nationality rights and related entitlements amongst northern nationalism whilst also encouraging a more assertive mood within the community.

Quote Or at least, job done for 210 associations, FIFA clearly never realised that such a construction would expose the pre-existing anomalous situation of the ROI government's nationality laws. (I say "expose", since this anomaly has always existed, but with a few unremarkable exceptions, was never really exploited by the FAI until the Gibson/Kearns cases brought it to a head.)


What on earth are you talking about? LOL

It's not an "anomaly". It's the general eligibility principle contained in article 5.

Quote By which point, whilst FIFA was clearly sympathetic to the IFA's cause, inc (I think) suggesting a compromise between FAI and IFA, nonetheless they were never going to dismantle their carefully constructed solution to a much wider problem, and start again with a new one which would also solve the IFA's consequential problem.


As I've explained, Circular Letter 901 has nothing to do with the eligibility of northerners to play for the FAI.

FIFA did nevertheless offer the IFA an exceptional proposal where the IFA would have enjoyed special treatment - unique in world football - that would have allowed the IFA to select players who did not possess the IFA's nationality or have a territorial link to the IFA's territory in order to get the IFA to wind their necks in, but the IFA rejected it. Why? You can't bleat on about "unfair" treatment when your association rejected such a proposal.

Quote I do not "deny the legitimacy" [sic] of Irish nationals born in NI.
Nor would I ever denigrate the pride which NI people who take advantage of this have in their status - that is entirely up to them.


What's the "[sic]" about there?

Quote But neither can I accept that their nationality is exactly the same as that possessed by people born in ROI, since it quite plainly isn't.


It is. We have the exact same passport as someone living in the south and it entitles us to the same rights. I'm no less an Irish citizen living in Derry just as I was no less an Irish citizen when I lived in Manchester for six years.

Quote For the granting of nationality normally brings with it rights and responsibilities. Re the former, do NI-born Irish Nationals have a vote, like their Southern counterparts? Do they have the same educational, welfare, social services and pension rights? Free travel pass?


These rights are dependent upon residence in the Republic. Irish nationals born or resident in England, for example, don't enjoy these rights either, but it doesn't make them lesser Irish citizens. If they wish to avail of such rights, they are perfectly entitled to do so, just like any other citizen, by residing in the Republic.

Quote Re the latter, can the ROI government levy taxes on NI-born nationals? Can they summon them for jury duty? TV licence? National service in time of emergency?
The answer to both is, no.


I'm not sure what the story would be with national service during an emergency, but so what? This is all irrelevant insofar as we are all Irish citizens. That's all that matters.

Quote So there you have it, when the ROI government decided to give out nationality to Northerners, it was essentially a political gesture, to bolster a territorial (Wink) claim which was otherwise symbolic, with no possibility of being enforced and which has since been dropped entirely, in favour of an "aspiration".


Again, what's the relevance of any of this (which is your own interpretation anyway)? 

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

I've explained above what I mean by "normal". In other words, if you are born outwith the territory of the Association which you wish to represent, it is "normal" practice also to have both to possess the appropriate nationality AND satisfy ancestral or residential criteria.

But that isn't the normal practice at all. Once again, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. What rule are you referring to? Normal practice is outlined in article 5 - the general principle - and it doesn't feature any mention of satisfying ancestral of residential criteria. If you are born a national of a country, you are eligible to play for that country under article 5 alone. Jon Walters, for example, was born in England, but he was born an Irish national as his late mother was an Irish national born in Ireland, so he qualified under article 5 alone, despite his birth in England. He didn't have to satisfy any of the article 7 criteria; they weren't invoked because he wasn't acquiring a new nationality nor was he naturalised. The territorial-related ancestral and residential criteria only come into play in the secondary articles 6 and 7, which are for exceptions to the norm, as I've already explained to you.

Quote And the situation whereby some nations encompass multiple associations, and therefore accord access to a choice of national football teams is highly exceptional, with the UK example being one where the four associations voluntarily bind themselves to the additional criteria which customarily apply elsewhere.


About 30 associations share a common nationality. Most of them are outlined here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules#Nations_that_share_a_common_nationality

The article 6 criteria apply to all these associations and not merely to the British associations.

Quote Or are you trying to claim that the Irish Republic has two National Associations within its territory/jurisdiction, like eg Denmark or China? (Good Luck with that one, if you are! LOL)

Not sure what you're getting at here, but I'm not trying to claim that anyway. What made you think that?

Quote But you may substitute "regular", "usual" or "customary" if you prefer.


Well, no, because it's not any of those either. The criteria you're talking about are exceptional or secondary. They do not feature in the general principle.

Quote
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Players born north of the border are entitled to be selected by the FAI only insofar as they are Irish nationals. British nationals who are born in the north and who do not identify as Irish nationals cannot be selected by the FAI.
"Cannot"? I think you mean "may not".

Either way, you are plain wrong!


No, I'm not. Only Irish nationality allows a player to represent the FAI. This is also outlined clearly in the Kearns judgment, although it is patently obvious anyway. As article 5 states: "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country."

British nationality is not the nationality of Ireland or the FAI. Only Irish nationals can be selected to play for the FAI. They may possess another nationality along with their Irish nationality but possession of Irish nationality is a prerequisite.

Quote I have to say I'm surprised at you coming out with such a clear error: that is, of course the FAI may (stress) select "British nationals who are born [in NI] but who do not identify as Irish".


Except you're the one who is mistaken. You're entire understanding of the situation is farcical and worthy of multiple face-palms. It's mind-boggling that you approach the debate with a swagger and aura of certainty considering how downright ill-informed you are. The FAI cannot select British nationals born in the north if they do not possess Irish nationality. What makes you think they can? The Kearns judgment and applicable rules contradict you.

Quote Whether those players may accept is another question, but an unwillingness of someone to play for a given team does not in any way compromise or negate the right of that team to select him, as eg Stephen Ireland demonstrates.


If someone born in the north wishes to effect their birthright entitlement to Irish nationality, they can do so and they would then be entitled to make themselves available for selection by the FAI, but Irish nationality is the prerequisite for eligibility to play for the FAI. I don't know where you're getting the idea from that players who are not Irish nationals can play for the FAI. It's fantasy.

Quote (And in any case, where does your ludicrous claim leave someone like me, who identifies as both British and Irish? LOL)


If you're an Irish national (as well as a British national, although this nationality would be irrelevant in terms of FAI eligibility), then you're eligible to play for the FAI on account of your Irish nationality. Are you an Irish national though? I suspect you're not. You identify as Irish in a regional or British sub-national sense, no? You don't identify as Irish in the national, independent, 32-county sense, do you?

Quote
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

It's also worth pointing out that Muzzy Izzet and Colin Kazim-Richards were eligible to play for Turkey on the basis of their (Turkish) Cypriot heritage (because Turkish citizenship extends extra-territorially over what only Turkey, out of the entire international community, recognises as Northern Cyprus), even though FIFA simultaneously recognise the entire island of Cyprus as the 'de jure' territory of the Cypriot football association. Ergo, Northern or Turkish Cypriots are eligible to play for Turkey. 
On the contrary, it is worthless!


If you think it's worthless, fair enough. It hardly has any legal or moral bearing on our situation either way. I merely mentioned it as it's an interesting analogy. The island-wide extension of Irish nationality remains legit and fully above board either way. This would be the case even if there were no analogies to be found elsewhere in the world.

Quote The Cypriot situation has no value whatever for the purposes of analogy, comparison or precedence, for the following reasons.
1. As you say, no-one bar Turkey recognises the legitimacy of the TRNC. Whereas the entire world recognises the legitimacy of Northern Ireland, as an integral part of the UK;
2. FIFA does not recognise the "Cyprus Turkish Football Association" [sic] for footballing purposes, whereas the IFA is an equal member of FIFA, just the same as every other;


TRNC is actually irrelevant insofar as we're talking about the extra-territorial application of Turkish nationality law over what FIFA and the rest of the world legally recognises as the northern half of the Republic or Cyprus and the territory of the Cypriot Football Association.

Quote 3. Since neither was good enough to play for the country of their birth (England), the Cypriot FA was never going to cap them and TRNC don't have a national football team, the only way they were ever going to get the chance to play international football was to be allowed to represent Turkey. In that respect, they were more like eg Matt Le Tissier, who could not play for Jersey (obviously), so was permitted to play for England. And in that respect they were different from eg James NcClean, who outwith the ROI, did have an alternative international team to represent. (Indeed, he was selected so to do, and accepted, before suddenly remembering he wasn't a Brit, but a proud Irishman instead.)


Eh? There was talk of Izzet playing for England. They were able to play for Turkey because they were full Turkish citizens on account of their (Turkish) Cypriot parentage and the application of Turkish nationality law over the northern half of Cyprus. It wasn't a case of them being permitted to play for Turkey as some sort of special dispensation because they had nobody else to represent. They had options in accordance with the ordinary eligibility rules. Matt Le Tissier's situation isn't analogous at all.

Quote Above all, your attempted analogy would only work if the Turkish FA (FAI) were permitted automatically to select every player born within the territory of the Cyprus FA (IFA), which is patently NOT the case.


But the FAI aren't permitted to select every player born within the territory of the IFA. They FAI can only select Irish nationals who satisfy any other relevant eligibility criteria pertaining to their situation.

Quote But I must say, I'm surprised that you repeat such a fatuous example, since if that's the best you can come up with, then it surely exposes the paucity of the case you're trying to make.


What are you talking about? I merely raised it as an interesting analogy or as an aside because you were bleating on about the situation supposedly being unique and now you're talking about it "exposing the paucity of my case". LOL Get real. It's ultimately not that significant because it doesn't change any of the facts or legal realities pertaining to our situation. It's the IFA's "case" that has always been lacking. See the Kearns judgment where it was comprehensively torn to shreds.

Quote
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

FIFA recognise that it is up to nation states themselves to construct and define their own citizenship laws as they see fit. You appear to have some problem with this because the effect of it doesn't conform to your preferences and prejudices. That's too bad. 
Of course FIFA "recognises" this, just as it recognises that night follows day, or that it rains a bit in Ireland. 
That is, they have neither the ability or the desire to interfere with, or change that right.
And neither have I denied it, either.
Though what that all has to do with the present debate beats me. Perhaps you're just working out some long-held gripe at something I posted elsewhere in another context?


If you recognise all that, what's your problem then? Why do you keep complaining about the right of northern-born Irish nationals to make themselves available for their country?

Quote
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Edit: Whilst I'm discussing this with you again, I'll just point out that you never responded to any of the points or questions I put to you on a previous occasion we were discussing eligibility here. Feel free to deal with them whenever...
I'll pass for the moment, if I may, on the basis that I think/hope I've addressed the bulk of it in this post.


No, you addressed very little of it actually. I'm afraid your entire post was based on confusion and ignorance, so do us a favour before replying next time; please digest what I have said and read the Kearns judgment along with articles 5 to 8 of FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes.

Quote And never mind the effect on any poor forum member who bothers to read this stuff, I fear that I might die of old age (or tedium) before I ever get to satisfy your seemingly insatiable* demand for answers on this topic.


I'm not looking for answers off you. You don't have any to give. I'm correcting your erroneous interpretation and countering your nonsense and misinformation. I just don't have much time for spoofing and dodging. You've been guilty of both.


Edited by Danny Invincible - 29 Mar 2018 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Actually, it differs in a number of respects.
Danny Devine is from NI and had already represented NI when he was persuaded to switch. He was 18 at the time and had yet to establish a regular place with PNE. After he switched, he never represented ROI at any level.

Jack Grealish is English. The most plausible explanation for his career path is that he knew when he opted for ROI at 16(?), he would get "fast-tracked" to a higher age group than he would with England. He then used the FAI to get as much as he could from them, before reverting to England at 20, when he was both good enough and still young enough to play for England's U-21's. Which he has done, on several occasions.

In other words, JG knew what he was doing when he used the FAI, whereas the FAI used Devine, without caring that he would have nowhere else to go after they persuaded him to switch.


Why do you get bogged down in irrelevancies?

Specific circumstances aren't relevant insofar as the players concerned hold a nationality that renders them eligible to play for an association. Devine was as eligible to play for the FAI as he was to play for the IFA. Grealish was as eligible to play for the FAI as he was to play for the FA. Devine was as eligible as Grealish to play for the FAI and both were as eligible as one another to play for the other associations for whom they were also eligible.

Devine made the choice to switch himself. If it didn't work out as he had hoped, that's something he has to accept. It's unfortunate if he regrets it, but it's the risk he took in the hope of a pay-off. For all we know, maybe he doesn't regret it and wouldn't have wanted IFA caps anyway.

The FAI were happy to select Grealish too because the FAI stood to benefit from playing the game of risk. The FAI were always aware of Grealish's dual eligibility, but selected him on the chance that he would eventually commit. The investment and risk didn't pay off, but it wasn't as if the relationship was a one-way transaction in terms of potential benefits. This is similarly the case when the IFA select ambivalent players who they know might dream of playing for the FAI. They take a chance because, in their self-interest, they hope they might get the player to eventually commit. 

Quote In other words, there is no reason why ROI can't wait, either until they're 20 or 21, or until NI look like tying them with a senior, competitive cap. Like the 22 y.o. James McClean.


If the FAI refused to facilitate northern-born Irish nationals who wished to make themselves available to play for the association, that would be a breach of the players' rights under FIFA's eligibility rules. This was stipulated very clearly in the Kearns judgment.

Quote Meanwhile, both Bruce and Scannell are entirely different, since they are/were mid-20's and mid-career, and ROI clearly no longer wants/wanted either of them.


How can you know they were "clearly no longer wanted"? The FAI certainly didn't make any such declaration. Keith Andrews made his senior debut for us aged 28 before becoming an integral part of our midfield. If he had happened to be a dual national, the notion that he wouldn't have been wanted by the FAI simply because he hadn't received recognition by his mid-20s obviously didn't apply to him, so he undermines your point. The fact is that you never know when an eligible player may be required again or for the first time if he hasn't already been selected. You might get a late bloomer. Who knows? I covered this point in the post from a few months ago that I linked you to here, but you never responded to it.


Edited by Danny Invincible - 21 Mar 2018 at 4:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Meanwhile, as an Irish Passport holder, JMcC is entitled to play for either of the two Irish Associations.


That just isn't true. Your erroneous assertion was dismissed at paragraph 79 of the Kearns judgment. The IFA attempted to make this case as a back-up argument but obviously couldn't prove its legal or factual basis because it is total baloney. Irish nationality permits a player to represent only the FAI. In order to play for the IFA a player must be entitled to British citizenship and must satisfy one of the article 6 criteria, although I understood that FIFA had granted the IFA a special dispensation whereby FIFA would allow players in possession of Irish passports only to play for the IFA (or for travel and identification purposes essentially) so long as the IFA otherwise verified that they were eligible to play for the association, or were British citizens according to British law, in other words.

The case of Paddy McEleney seems to raise questions about that special exemption though. He is on record saying that an IFA official told him he'd need to get himself a British passport if he wanted to switch to the IFA. Maybe the special exemption for the IFA only applies to players so long as they're not switching to the association?

Anyhow, the fact of the matter is that Irish nationality permits you to play for only the FAI.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Fact is, players switch between Associations all the time, hundreds every year.


There aren't actually hundreds every year. To give an idea of the actual numbers, here are the figures up to mid-2014:



Quote But the difference here is that NI-born players do not have to satisfy the same residential or ancestral criteria that apply universally elsewhere. Indeed, NI-born players who wish to represent any other Association bar the FAI would have to meet those criteria.


These territorial-related residential and ancestral criteria don't apply universally elsewhere. Those criteria only come into effect if a player wishes to play for an association that shares nationality with other associations or if a player acquires a new nationality. 

You're aware that a switch of association (which is dealt with by article 8) is not the same thing as acquiring a new nationality (which is dealt with by article 7) and that the acquiring of a new nationality does not necessitate or necessarily involve a switch of association, right? 

Quote Worse, the FAI is cynically inducing impressionable young kids to switch from NI, with who knows what kind of promises, even though that decision cannot be reversed should it not work out with ROI. 

Which, as Michael observes, is increasingly the case.


Can you back this claim up with examples and evidence?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 9:49am

Danny, I think you'll be waiting a while a response from Terry. I think he went into the Witness relocation program after SuperDave schooled him. 
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