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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 12:42am
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Now that is impressive whataboutery. Do you also need explained why Poles and Russians pop off each other?
 
You are fully aware of the background to the Polish fans going berserk in Belfast. To remind you of this is not to 'justify' as you put it.


You obviously don't understand the meaning of "Whataboutery", which is were "A" seeks to excuse his actions because "B" did something worse. "You can't arrest me for stealing £5, because he stole £100".

My case is this.

SByrne is (knowingly) repeating the lie that NI fans attacked Polish fans when they came to Belfast.

In order to rebut this, I pointed out that Polish football hoolies have a long record of causing trouble both home and away, whereas NI fans do not.
(That is, the difference between Evidence and Whataboutery).

Meanwhile, you and others are claiming that these (otherwise peaceable?) Polish fans only attacked NI fans because Polish shops had previously been attacked in Belfast.

I have no idea whether this is true or not and nor, I'm sure, do you. But even if it is true, it only tears the arse out of the liar SByrne's claim that NI fans were the aggressors.

Of course, I don't expect people like SByrne to believe me and worse still, his lies might haver some traction with others on this forum who are unaware of the situation and events.

They might, however, care to read this Guardian article written after the game by, ahem, Aleksandra Lojek-Magdziark:

Poland's hooligans export violence

Rioting by Polish 'pseudo fans' under a republican flag threatens to entangle Belfast's Poles in sectarian violence

Rioting of the kind provoked by Polish football hooligans in Belfast at the weekend is a sadly frequent occurrence in Poland. Now I fear these people may do a great deal of damage to relations between Northern Irish and Polish communities in the city....

... Not all Polish football fans are violent, of course, the majority are ordinary people who love football, but an aggressive minority are loud and highly dangerous. I have great respect for the Police Service of Northern Ireland, but they seem to have been ill-prepared for the influx of thugs.

"Pseudo fans", as we call them in Polish, use various thoughtless symbols to underscore their rebellious attitude. In Northern Ireland they used a republican flag to provoke people in Belfast. It revealed their absolute ignorance: they do not support dissident republicans in the slightest, mainly because they have no idea who they are....

... Unfortunately, however, Polish migrants living in Belfast are being tainted by the hooligans' actions. Polish houses are being attacked, shop windows smashed and abuse hurled at them.

The government and NGOs have been doing their best to ease tensions with grassroots projects such as Frank Higgins's Thin End of the Wedge. The vulnerability of the economy, and the fact that many Poles are staunch Catholics, can lead to problems. The good work of people like Higgins could be ruined thanks to the brainless thugs who came to Belfast, often ticketless, to start the violence.

(Read more at: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/mar/31/football-hooligans-belfast-polish-poland

Then there's this, from the Newsletter (30/03/09)

Polish community chief 'ashamed of hooligans'

A LEADING member of Ulster's Polish community says he is "ashamed" of his fellow countrymen who orchestrated violence on the streets of Belfast at the weekend.

Several hundred football hooligans were involved in violent skirmishes with police and Northern Ireland supporters prior to the World Cup qualifier at Windsor Park on Saturday.
It is believed as many as 300 so-called Polish supporters, who were tickletless, made their way to Windsor Park from the city centre.
Director of Northern Ireland’s Polish Association, Maciek Bator, was also acting as a facilitator with the PSNI outside the ground.
Only hours before the violence, Mr Bator had participated in a Respect Through Football event at Seaview, attended by both Poland and Northern Ireland supporters.
Speaking to the News Letter, he backed a call made by a senior police officer that the perpetrators came to Belfast with the sole aim of causing havoc.
Mr Bator said: “A group of Polish hooligans, who I cannot call supporters, tried to clash with the local fans and the whole situation started.
“I feel ashamed. We didn’t expect this to happen and unfortunately a group of troublemakers came over from Poland – maybe they are living in Great Britain, we do not know – and they destroyed all the good work we did to create a brilliant atmosphere.”



Or there's this from Eva Grozman in the Belfast Tele. (31/03/09):
"These football hooligans who arrived on Saturday aren’t typical of my countrymen, although unfortunately Poland has some of the most notorious football hooligans in Europe."

And if you won't believe reports from those sources, here is what RTE noted:

Four admit charges over NI clashes

Four men have pleaded guilty to disorderly behaviour linked to disturbances prior to an international football match in Belfast.
Tomasz Bobrowicz, 30, from Suffolk, Przemyslaw Pawel Kusmierczyk, 28, from Liverpool, Lukasz Szwajda, 22, from London, and Tomasz Jakobik, 26, from University Avenue in Belfast, appeared at Belfast Magistrates Court.
They were arrested on Saturday afternoon after trouble flared inside a city centre bar.
Jakobik, who has lived in Northern Ireland for two years, also pleaded guilty to possessing a firework without a licence. He will appear in court again next month.
The other three men were given two-month sentences, which were suspended for one year.
A police officer, who said he could connect all four defendants with the incidents, told the court that the men had been on the periphery of the violent scenes in and around Wetherspoons bar in Bedford Street.
The disturbance was one of a number of flashpoints of football-related violence before, during and after Northern Ireland's 3-2 victory over Poland at Windsor Park.
The PSNI says 11 police officers were injured during the trouble.






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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:00am
NI fans did attack Polish fans end off, what did they chant at Boruc again? It was a lovely chant perhaps you could enlighten us 'Fenian' what was it again Fenian something. Infact the same fans burn them out of their homes, spit at them, spit at their children, hurl abuse at them on a daily basis around the 6 counties.

The PSNI? The same police force under a different name who closed off roads for the UVF to kill innocent people watching an Ireland game. I want to see your reports on that, go on show us all the report the ex ombudsman released, don't leave out any of the key lies now, bold them also for us.

You annoy me immensely, you come on here and take a moral high ground defending the great NI faithful trying to make a fool of any of us who dare disagree. You Ignore the years of bigotry that still exists in your domestic league and national set up. You actually once mentioned the number of English players we have, how many do NI have at the minute? Don't leave out the Canadian either. You remind me of the Belfast Telegrapth actually the more I think about it.

I cannot wait till they lose on Sunday, UTV didn't mention the ROI once this evening I find that an absolute disgrace from a national broadcaster who is meant to represent both sides of the community.

I'll tell you who'll be making all the noise on Sunday afternoon, the Polish Ultras.

Stick around Territoral, the twelve is coming up. The same fans who will be at Euro2016 for NI will be helping construct bonfires to burn our national flag, to burn Bobby Sands photos, Gerry Adams among others and they steal an our lady statue again to burn that, come defend their actions.

Edited by SByrne24 - 09 Jun 2016 at 1:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:25am

Would you like me to continue to keep adding footage of NI fans harassing Polish fans then attempting to assault them? ive more videos I'm sure you'll love to see you make your hours of research look pointless.

You will on 30 seconds one individual lift a chair, and take aim at a Polish fan. Sure that's grand to.

https://youtu.be/pf9_myDxzM0

Attacking the opposition fans is nothing new to followers of Nothern Ireland at domestic level either:

https://youtu.be/rwWplifLsR4



Territoral, I shall wait on the Obudsman report.. The same individual who took to do with what I mentioned it's clear he lied to cover up the RUC and again to cover up the pathetic bunch of NI fans who attacked polish fans simply supporting there team.

Anything else I could correct you on? Perhaps more video footage of other attacks on opposition the NI faithful don't like?
https://youtu.be/B9tatN3UTJk

Edited by SByrne24 - 09 Jun 2016 at 1:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:32am
That drunk lad picking up the chair is priceless. He has absolutely no idea what to do it or where to throw it, so he just lets go of it in a general direction. Similar to debates about social changes, the standard of rioter has dropped significantly in Belfast in the past twenty years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:41am
Your video evidence isn't the most conclusive Topper! It consists of a scuffle breaking out for obscure reasons, a drunk man dancing with a chair and crowd trouble from 1990. Far be it for me to defend the great confused wildlings of the north, but do better than that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:42am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

That drunk lad picking up the chair is priceless. He has absolutely no idea what to do it or where to throw it, so he just lets go of it in a general direction. Similar to debates about social changes, the standard of rioter has dropped significantly in Belfast in the past twenty years.




My personal favourite is the third link when the Linfield breverend came down to Tallaght, 51 seconds the guy in the chequered shirt.

I could do better PM, but there's too many links I could post! I'll wait on Territorials high ground reply and then begin posting the links outside Windsor and the reports of Polish getting their homes attacked due the game.

Edited by SByrne24 - 09 Jun 2016 at 1:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:51am
Homes attacked during the game? Really? Hadn't heard this, quite bizarre!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 1:55am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Homes attacked during the game? Really? Hadn't heard this, quite bizarre!


Due to*

In the aftermath, a number families who had settled in the Belfast area got burnt out of their homes. All In a typical days work for the PUL community pm.

Edited by SByrne24 - 09 Jun 2016 at 1:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 2:07am
So not during the game? While I sympathise with your argument here, I don't think you can blame Norn Iron fans for the actions of their broader community. I mean there was an instance of anti Poliah behaviour in Cork recently, I wouldn't like for allCork people or ROI fans to be blamed for that based on geography.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 2:42am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

So not during the game? While I sympathise with your argument here, I don't think you can blame Norn Iron fans for the actions of their broader community. I mean there was an instance of anti Poliah behaviour in Cork recently, I wouldn't like for allCork people or ROI fans to be blamed for that based on geography.


The actions I'm highlighting are the Attacks on the Polish either at the game or immediately after. It goes without saying 99.5% of Linfield fans are NI fans, it's linked there is a corelation between the attacks at the game and the attacks on homes after they're 100% linked, it wasn't random.

The other links are the broader community simply showing the domestic football bigotry I highlighted in an earlier point, I don't think there is a better example then Tallaght were they changed the 'Billy boys'

I'm not saying all Narnia fans are hooligans, simply pointing out a percent are, Territoral would led you believe NI fans are the best in the world, and have been for decades..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 2:57am
And I agree with that, I am hardly a fan of the pub team's supporters. I just feel that if we start blurring the lines between actions within communities and football incidents we make things easier for them to detract from their behaviour and make us look to be the bigots.
To use the analogy in Cork again, some of the lads trying to get the polish family thrown out of the estate may well have been Cork City and Ireland fans like myself, some would not be, if I was to become tarred with the same brush because I share a subset in the same social Venn diagram, I would be rightly annoyed as it is not relevant. We know that 99% of Linfield follow the other team at Windsor, we know that 99% identify as loyalist or unionist, that doesn't mean that every act of idiocy down on the Shankhill is related to lads being all of those things. We can only blame football fans for their actions as football fans, not their actions as anything else or we blur those lines.
You can't blame Northern Ireland fans for Linfield fans behaviour, the same way you can't blame Irish fans for Shamrock Rovers behaviour or England fans for Millwall fans behaviour( I apologise for using club stereotypes here)

Edited by pre Madonna - 09 Jun 2016 at 3:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Double Maxim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 5:27am
Double Maxim without doubt the greatest drink in the world
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 4:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 4:08pm
I saw that last night on twitter, that was the chant for him when he played for Rangers, I assume it is still sung? I think it is factually inaccurate in both cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randyrandolph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 4:09pm
knuckle draggers on tour... any surprise? 

no wonder it's £7 a ticket to see them...

where's our resident nordy to defend?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by randyrandolph randyrandolph wrote:

knuckle draggers on tour... any surprise? 

no wonder it's £7 a ticket to see them...

where's our resident nordy to defend?



When he arrives, along with the previous Loughinisland report, id like him to enlighten me on this, will Kyle be playing the flute here? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 6:42pm
You are doing it again! What has this got to do with the football team or it's fans? You are back to blurring the lines and making yourself look like the bigot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

You are doing it again! What has this got to do with the football team or it's fans? You are back to blurring the lines and making yourself look like the bigot.

There fans have a flag with 'plays the flute' 

I'm simply asking will he be playing the flute through this town? It's related PM. 
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