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We’re not Brasil we’re Tuaisceart Éireann

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2019 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Ah sure I forgot everyone up north is so friendly. I remember how nice they were in Windsor on 17 November 1993.   Sure the lovely Billy Bingham (who loves catholics btw), had a lovely welcome for us.  Was he not whipping up the crowd with his royal wave and encouraging the crowd chanting abuse?  Yes he did. 

No you don't. You weren't there. I was. And whatever else was said, which I've never denied or defended, in that instance Bingham was waving in response to the home crowd singing "One Team in Ireland" as a pisstake.

Before, like the "Bouncy" myth, this was suddenly distorted to a disgraceful slur to tarnish the reputation of a good man.

Of course I don't expect you to take my word on matters like this, so I instead will happily refer you to 'Gspain' for his recall, seeing as he was there. He was sitting amongst the NI fans (obv), who cottoned on to the fact that he was an ROI fan when your equaliser went in, yet the only adverse comment he received was a "Jammy Bastard" remark at the final whistle.

Indeed, he has already given a full account of his experience on this very forum and whatever else, it hasn't deterred him from making numerous visits to Windsor in the years since.

Not that ignorant, prejudiced detractors like you pay heed to anything which doesn't suit your pre-determined agenda....



I saw it on tv. Does that not count?  TV companies have pitchside microphones. It's amazing that even in 1993 you could watch a game and hear the atmosphere at the same time.

Windsor was such a  friendly place our anthem wasn't played lest upset the mouth frothers in the crowd and cause a riot.  Our team had to fly up rather than take the 90 minute bus journey for security fears.  Is that normal?  Just goes to show you how institutionalised you are that you accept sectarianism and abuse as normal or as a bit of banter.   I'd say you have selective hearing as well. As for gspain not hearing anything, well he may not have heard anything personally to him or in his immediate vicinity but don't sit there behind your computer lying about the atmosphere.  It was disgusting.

Big Jack's take on the atmosphere.    Also it's well known Bingham's assistant said 'up yours' to Jack when TE scored which led to the famous photo of Jack pointing his finger at Bingham.




Edited by Trap junior - 05 Dec 2019 at 6:36pm
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Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:


I saw it on tv. Does that not count?  TV companies have pitchside microphones. It's amazing that even in 1993 you could watch a game and hear the atmosphere at the same time.

Whatever else you may have seen - and I've never denied that there were some disgraceful songs and chants from a section of our support - you did NOT see what you're claiming about Bingham and for you to repeat it exposes you as a liar, simple as.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Windsor was such a  friendly place our anthem wasn't played lest upset the mouth frothers in the crowd and cause a riot.

Of course, there was immaculately observed, respectful silence for our anthem in Dublin. Well there had to be, seeing as it wasn't played down there either. Maybe they were afraid of rabies amongst your support, too?

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Our team had to fly up rather than take the 90 minute bus journey for security fears.  Is that normal?  Just goes to show you how institutionalised you are that you accept sectarianism and abuse as normal or as a bit of banter.   I'd say you have selective hearing as well.

Showing your ignorance once again.
After first trying to persuade FIFA to be allowed to play the game at a neutral venue (shades of "Team 33"?), Charlton then insisted that his team could stay and train in a hotel by the border, then travel on by bus to Belfast before the game.
So when FIFA pointed out that regulations require all visiting teams to be on the territory of the host team 24 hours before the match, they decided to fly to Belfast instead.
From where they got a bus to a nearby hotel (the Culloden?).
So that on the day of the match, they had to get another bus across the city to Windsor. Of course, when the police provided an escort, as is customary to avoid delays etc, Charlton expressed his astonishment that they were armed! That is, in his ignorance, he assumed that that was a special measure uniquely for his team, rather than the way things had to be done in those days.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I'd say you have selective hearing as well. As for gspain not hearing anything, well he may not have heard anything personally to him or in his immediate vicinity but don't sit there behind your computer lying about the atmosphere.  It was disgusting.

I have never denied or defended the fact that a section of our support behaved disgracefully. But what I will not accept is that it was across the board, nor will I accept the vile slur about Bingham.
Of course, I don't expect you to take my word for it, but when you imagine you know better than the likes of Gspain, who was only at the game, then you are only exposing your own ignorant prejudice.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Big Jack's take on the atmosphere.    Also it's well known Bingham's assistant said 'up yours' to Jack when TE scored which led to the famous photo of Jack pointing his finger at Bingham.

Whatever else he was, Charlton was no diplomat, and his pre-match comments (above) contributed to a stoking up of the atmosphere. Though tbf, he had the good grace to apologise to Bingham after the match when he had cooled down.

As for someone saying "Up Yours" to him, that's hardly a war crime, is it? (I'm sure he's had a lot worse said to him in his time, what with his having been a notoriously violent centre half when playing for Dirty Leeds)

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:


Part of the problem was that in their naivety, the ROI team assumed we'd just roll over and let you qualify easy as you like for 1994. Of course that was never going to happen, not least because it was Bingham's last game, and we wanted to send him off with a win.

As for the video itself, Charlton's comments were hardly extreme, were they? Or did he never play eg for England v Scotland at Hampden?

Though I must admit, the crowd chanting "Northern Ireland" in the background to it was highly inflammatory...

But you know what they say in the media: "When the fact becomes legend, print the legend"


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2019 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:


I saw it on tv. Does that not count?  TV companies have pitchside microphones. It's amazing that even in 1993 you could watch a game and hear the atmosphere at the same time.

Whatever else you may have seen - and I've never denied that there were some disgraceful songs and chants from a section of our support - you did NOT see what you're claiming about Bingham and for you to repeat it exposes you as a liar, simple as.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Windsor was such a  friendly place our anthem wasn't played lest upset the mouth frothers in the crowd and cause a riot.

Of course, there was immaculately observed, respectful silence for our anthem in Dublin. Well there had to be, seeing as it wasn't played down there either. Maybe they were afraid of rabies amongst your support, too?

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Our team had to fly up rather than take the 90 minute bus journey for security fears.  Is that normal?  Just goes to show you how institutionalised you are that you accept sectarianism and abuse as normal or as a bit of banter.   I'd say you have selective hearing as well.

Showing your ignorance once again.
After first trying to persuade FIFA to be allowed to play the game at a neutral venue (shades of "Team 33"?), Charlton then insisted that his team could stay and train in a hotel by the border, then travel on by bus to Belfast before the game.
So when FIFA pointed out that regulations require all visiting teams to be on the territory of the host team 24 hours before the match, they decided to fly to Belfast instead.
From where they got a bus to a nearby hotel (the Culloden?).
So that on the day of the match, they had to get another bus across the city to Windsor. Of course, when the police provided an escort, as is customary to avoid delays etc, Charlton expressed his astonishment that they were armed! That is, in his ignorance, he assumed that that was a special measure uniquely for his team, rather than the way things had to be done in those days.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I'd say you have selective hearing as well. As for gspain not hearing anything, well he may not have heard anything personally to him or in his immediate vicinity but don't sit there behind your computer lying about the atmosphere.  It was disgusting.

I have never denied or defended the fact that a section of our support behaved disgracefully. But what I will not accept is that it was across the board, nor will I accept the vile slur about Bingham.
Of course, I don't expect you to take my word for it, but when you imagine you know better than the likes of Gspain, who was only at the game, then you are only exposing your own ignorant prejudice.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Big Jack's take on the atmosphere.    Also it's well known Bingham's assistant said 'up yours' to Jack when TE scored which led to the famous photo of Jack pointing his finger at Bingham.

Whatever else he was, Charlton was no diplomat, and his pre-match comments (above) contributed to a stoking up of the atmosphere. Though tbf, he had the good grace to apologise to Bingham after the match when he had cooled down.

As for someone saying "Up Yours" to him, that's hardly a war crime, is it? (I'm sure he's had a lot worse said to him in his time, what with his having been a notoriously violent centre half when playing for Dirty Leeds)

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:


Part of the problem was that in their naivety, the ROI team assumed we'd just roll over and let you qualify easy as you like for 1994. Of course that was never going to happen, not least because it was Bingham's last game, and we wanted to send him off with a win.

As for the video itself, Charlton's comments were hardly extreme, were they? Or did he never play eg for England v Scotland at Hampden?

Though I must admit, the crowd chanting "Northern Ireland" in the background to it was highly inflammatory...

But you know what they say in the media: "When the fact becomes legend, print the legend"




Yeah. My nose is growing so much I am typing this response with it alright..

Terry's view on all things TE:

TE fans are the best fans in the world.  We are the most open and welcoming fans in the world.  There is no such thing as sectarianism and never has been.  Everyone that has played for TE is a legend and is of honourable stock. Everyone is welcome to play for us and unionist players are welcome to play for The EIRE without a problem or fear.

We are just one big cuddly bunch up here.   How dare you say anything different otherwise I will reveal my William Ulsterman impression.



Bingham was a coont whose true colours came out that night.  Whipping up the crowd and tension with his little wave as can be seen on video.  Of course you will spin it to it being his last game or maybe it was because he was as bitter as fcuk and wanted to stuff the EIRE.  His comments before the game were inflammatory never mind Jack's. Bingham was loving all the abuse we were getting, waving them on for more.

As for your story on the bus trip.  I very much doubt that is true.  Source? Why would you go from Monaghan to Dublin to get a flight to Belfast??  Why would you fly home from Belfast??  Everything I have ever read about the match stated that they flew for security reasons.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2019 at 9:31pm
Territorial how can you accuse Charlton of stoking up the atmosphere pre-match when it was Bingham that was doing it over his mercenary and stuff them comments? 


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Terri doing a fine job of trying to rewrite history

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Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:


Terry's view on all things TE:

TE fans are the best fans in the world.  We are the most open and welcoming fans in the world.  There is no such thing as sectarianism and never has been.  Everyone that has played for TE is a legend and is of honourable stock. Everyone is welcome to play for us and unionist players are welcome to play for The EIRE without a problem or fear.

Can you point to where I've ever said anything like that?

Once again, you are allowing your prejudice to colour your narrative.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Bingham was a coont whose true colours came out that night.  Whipping up the crowd and tension with his little wave as can be seen on video.  Of course you will spin it to it being his last game or maybe it was because he was as bitter as fcuk and wanted to stuff the EIRE.  His comments before the game were inflammatory never mind Jack's. Bingham was loving all the abuse we were getting, waving them on for more.

A manager who waves to the home crowd as he takes his place in the dugout for his final game in charge? Encouraging them to sing "One Team in Ireland"?
Is that it?
Christ almighty! If that's the best you have, it shows who the bitter one, that's for sure, when you're still bringing it up (falsifying it, actually) over a quarter of a century later.

As for Bingham's "true colours", he is the same man who selected a West Belfast Catholic to be Best Man at his wedding. Who chose Martin O'Neill to be his World Cup captain over Sammy McIlroy in 1982. Who had Catholics like Pat Jennings and Jimmy Quinn play their hearts out for him time and again, in teams whose very success depended on togetherness and camaraderie:



"Feel the Hate" Confused

As for the tension in the run-up to the match, my point was that Charlton - a noted hothead - contributed in no small part himself, incl trying to persuade FIFA to change the Rules to his team's advantage and against ours, yet he gets a complete bye-ball for his part in it.

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

As for your story on the bus trip.  I very much doubt that is true.  Source? Why would you go from Monaghan to Dublin to get a flight to Belfast??  Why would you fly home from Belfast??  Everything I have ever read about the match stated that they flew for security reasons.

My point was that they had to get a bus from their hotel on the outskirts of East Belfast right across town to the stadium before the match, and a bus to the airport afterwards. And you know what? No-one died, either way.

But heyho, you know better, seeing as you were watching it all on tv in your front room...






Edited by Territorial - 06 Dec 2019 at 1:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 1:22pm
Image result for ron atkinson black player


Image result for ron atkinson black player




Edited by Trap junior - 06 Dec 2019 at 1:25pm
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Territorial how can you accuse Charlton of stoking up the atmosphere pre-match when it was Bingham that was doing it over his mercenary and stuff them comments? 

My point was that Charlton played his part, too.

Or do you really imagine that NI fans were going meekly to accept eg his demand that the game be played at a neutral venue somewhere in England or the Continent?

I mean, it's not as if there was any need whatever for that - as events subsequently proved.

Watch the last few seconds of this video, for example:

Note the way that when the final whistle went, the ROI players all celebrated their victory on the pitch, with no need for protection or security etc. And after the initial celebrations, they then stood around waiting to hear the result from Denmark.

Now I'm not saying we (GAWA) deserve any credit for not lobbing missiles or invading the pitch etc - that should be standard behaviour of course. (We just left the ground, as normal)

But compare that with scenes at the end of big derby matches eg in Turkey, Serbia, Argentina or Brazil, where the visiting team has to dash for the safety of the dressing room the minute the final whistle goes, with an escort of riot cops carrying shields etc:



Which only goes to reinforce my point, which is that we are held to a much higher standard than other teams, even decades after the event, during which time much has changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Terri doing a fine job of trying to rewrite history


Let's hear your version, then.

I'm always keen to hear eye-witness acounts from visiting fans who attend our games...


Edited by Territorial - 06 Dec 2019 at 1:26pm
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Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Image result for ron atkinson black player


Image result for ron atkinson black player



There is evidence to suggest that Big Ron holds racist views.

Where is your evidence for Bingham?

I mean, you do realise they're two different people?



Edited by Territorial - 06 Dec 2019 at 1:28pm
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Image result for ron atkinson black player


Image result for ron atkinson black player



There is evidence to suggest that Big Ron holds racist views.

Where is your evidence for Bingham?

I mean, you do realise they're two different people?



They are?  I've never seen them both in the same room at the same time.  Have you?

Sure how could Big Ron be racist?  He signed black players and wouldn't be seen celebrating with them if he was racist now would he? He loves black people.


Edited by Trap junior - 06 Dec 2019 at 1:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Terri doing a fine job of trying to rewrite history


Let's hear your version, then.

I'm always keen to hear eye-witness acounts from visiting fans who attend our games...



Here you go.

Probably hundreds more article from people at the game.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/there-was-poison-in-the-air-25-years-on-from-that-night-in-windsor-park-1.3690897

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/lower-than-anything-ive-ever-had-on-a-football-field-it-was-horrific-niall-quinn-on-trick-or-treat-chant-in-windsor-park-38141031.html

     
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Territorial how can you accuse Charlton of stoking up the atmosphere pre-match when it was Bingham that was doing it over his mercenary and stuff them comments? 

My point was that Charlton played his part, too.

Or do you really imagine that NI fans were going meekly to accept eg his demand that the game be played at a neutral venue somewhere in England or the Continent?

I mean, it's not as if there was any need whatever for that - as events subsequently proved.

Watch the last few seconds of this video, for example:

Note the way that when the final whistle went, the ROI players all celebrated their victory on the pitch, with no need for protection or security etc. And after the initial celebrations, they then stood around waiting to hear the result from Denmark.

Now I'm not saying we (GAWA) deserve any credit for not lobbing missiles or invading the pitch etc - that should be standard behaviour of course. (We just left the ground, as normal)

But compare that with scenes at the end of big derby matches eg in Turkey, Serbia, Argentina or Brazil, where the visiting team has to dash for the safety of the dressing room the minute the final whistle goes, with an escort of riot cops carrying shields etc:



Which only goes to reinforce my point, which is that we are held to a much higher standard than other teams, even decades after the event, during which time much has changed.

Asking for a game to be moved over Bingham's insult towards our players is hardly the same thing. 

Simple question: Was Bingham in the wrong for describing our players as mercenaries? 

As simple yes or no will suffice rather than a thesis. Thanks.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Terri doing a fine job of trying to rewrite history


Let's hear your version, then.

I'm always keen to hear eye-witness acounts from visiting fans who attend our games...
 
I've read plenty of accounts from the likes of Niall Quinn and Paul McGrath, and would take them on face value more than your blinkered views.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

There is evidence to suggest that Big Ron holds racist views.

Where is your evidence for Bingham?

I mean, you do realise they're two different people?



They are?  I've never seen them both in the same room at the same time.  Have you?

Sure how could Big Ron be racist?  He signed black players and wouldn't be seen celebrating with them if he was racist now would he? He loves black people.

I repeat, where is your evidence to show that Bingham has/had bigoted views?

And by "evidence", I mean hard facts.

You know, things that he said or did, that sort of thing.

(Merely repeating prejudiced allegations from partial sources doesn't count, btw)
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Asking for a game to be moved over Bingham's insult towards our players is hardly the same thing. 

Simple question: Was Bingham in the wrong for describing our players as mercenaries? 

As simple yes or no will suffice rather than a thesis. Thanks.   

Whether it is/was accurate or not, I agree it would have been wiser not to say it. But in the grand scheme of things, it's hardly the worst thing a manager ever said about another team's players. (If anything, it provided Charlton with something to pin on the dressing room wall.)

Except when it's an NI manager we're talking about - then such remarks get upgraded to the status of a war crime.

And as for Chafrlton's demands that the match be switched, which would have given his team a huge advantage over Denmark etc, as well as depriving us of the chance to see our own team and give Bingham his send-off, he claimed that it was "unsafe" for ROI to play in Belfast.

Which was utter bullsh*t - as events subsequently proved.

Or did I somehow miss the casualty lists, rioting and mass evacuations?
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