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Points: 37316 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 8:17am
As I said about the Michael Conlan walk on song, a direct comparison with that would be if Carl Frampton walked into the ring to a UVF chant. People aren't comparing apples with apples here either.
 
If Ireland fans were in a bar in Dublin beside the Aviva singing We hate Protestants, it would rightly be condemned and disgraceful to see.
Same with if England fans were singing we hate Muslims, or Russians singing we hate blacks.
 
Whether people are offended or not, and leaving your own feelings on the catholic church to one side, its very close to being a hate crime is it not? Singing a song that glorifies the old IRA or UVF is not the same.
 
The same people bewildered at people being offended at this would probably get offended by the Sun newspaper making disparaging comments about a muslim terrorist.


Edited by Roberto Baggio - 29 Mar 2019 at 8:19am
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Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Nationalists aren't really going to feel welcomed by the fact that Northern Ireland as an entity, and as a result a football association, exists.  It would be contradictory to the term 'nationalist', in an Irish context at least, to support Northern Ireland. 


True but then the Republic of Ireland (FAI) actually broke away causing two teams.  So would it not be also contradictory to support the Republic of Ireland.  Indeed maybe a true nationalist should just support NI and hope the splitters coming crawling back.  Big smile

I can actually remember well the GAA jibes re "Partitionist sport" etc in the 1970's.    
No, because it is the entities being represented is the problem. A nationalist would be undermining their own beliefs by supporting NI. I am not saying that people from that community can't or won't, just that  it would be at odds with the term nationalist. I couldn't give a f**k who people want to support, I just find it a bit nonsensical to have Ireland fans moaning about the IFA not doing enough to attract 'nationalist' fans when there is an obvious contradiction. 

As for the GAADead I did notice that the video in question  was shared by a GAA man, without a hint of irony!

Surely both entities are a problem for nationalists?  However the IFA were the original governing body for football on this island.  The Leinster FA (subsequently Free State and then FAI) broke away.  Indeed the IFA continued to pick an all-Ireland team until the FAI went to FIFA in 1950.  They made it clear that there are two different political entities here and that the IFA should stick to their own side etc.  FIFA agreed.  The last all-Ireland national football side that played in an official International game was v Wales in Wrexham in 1950.  Note the unofficial games (An Toastal)  v England in 55 & 56 and Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil do not count.

The IFA have done great work in ensuring that the NI team play in a neutral environment.  It is noisy and passionate but non threatening.  I agree that for many nationalists it will never be enough.  A new NI specific anthem and a new flag (Cross of St. Patrick anyone???) would also help but maybe that is up to the "government." However green shirts with a Celtic Cross on the badge aren't exactly cross community either are they?

The Celtic Cross is very cross community, no? Church of Ireland and Presbyterians both use it for a start. There's a famous one outside Belfast Cathedral and another on their altar.
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

As I said about the Michael Conlan walk on song, a direct comparison with that would be if Carl Frampton walked into the ring to a UVF chant. People aren't comparing apples with apples here either.
 
If Ireland fans were in a bar in Dublin beside the Aviva singing We hate Protestants, it would rightly be condemned and disgraceful to see.
Same with if England fans were singing we hate Muslims, or Russians singing we hate blacks.
 
Whether people are offended or not, and leaving your own feelings on the catholic church to one side, its very close to being a hate crime is it not? Singing a song that glorifies the old IRA or UVF is not the same.
 
The same people bewildered at people being offended at this would probably get offended by the Sun newspaper making disparaging comments about a muslim terrorist.
Your first three paragraphs are broadly correct, your last paragraph is dangerous nonsense! 

You do understand the difference between a group of drunken eejits in a loyalist pub and a tabloid newspaper? That certainly isn’t comparing mangoes with mangoes! For example, I couldn’t give a f**k if some group of the Democratic Football Fans Alliance, or whoever the f**k they are, are singing about hating Muslims or anybody else, in a pub near Wembley.
A national ‘news’paper printing misrepresentative stories about a section of the population is something people should be upset about.


Edited by pre Madonna - 29 Mar 2019 at 10:36am
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@Baggio:  all the incidents discussed on recent pages are arguably close to hate crime- because as I said in reply to D9-69, glorifying paramilitarism will be seen as hateful, and the people who do it know that

@Martiponti: a move away from Windsor would have been wasteful and was never a serious prospect. Put simply, there are few areas in NI that wider opinion would agree as 'neutral'- and Lisburn/ the Maze isn't one of them. That site would also have been a hugely expensive white elephant well away from city centres, road and rail access and so on. The Irish FA reacted sensibly if belatedly to customer demand. Any suggestion that nationalist opinion would have become significantly more supportive purely as a result of the move is fanciful. Good luck with your reunification daydream and laughing children btw. Is Shinner support holding up in Quebec?

@GSpain: the IFA are most likely to drop GSTQ if England do so first. Which they might, for PR reasons if nowt else. Yesterday's media reported they're about to rebrand as 'English FA', to avoid accusations of arrogance if they bid for WC 2030. The flag's unlikely to change: pretty much all non-nationalist opinion is at least comfortable with it (as are FIFA, UEFA and all their members). While nationalists will never suggest a replacement, broadly for reasons P-Madge suggests

@DaveyC: you'll notice that I didn't (and don't) refer to a "cross-community team", and explained in the next line why not. It's an irrelevant argument because the IFA and NI fans accept that the FAI and RoI fans exist, and aren't trying to deny or replace them- it would be pointless

@P-Madge: people glorify the 1912 UVF or 1916 IRA for a variety of reasons: honoring their dead ancestors, celebrating Alpha Males as you suggest,  (in the former case) reacting to the obvious fetish for the British Military since the Middle East Wars. And of course there's a 4th reason- using the historical version to mask support for the more recent operatives

@Green Man: no-one forces Michael O'Neill to comment on issues like this; he could easily have swerved it to the IFA, or supporters' reps. So you can be confident he believes what he says. Quibble if you must about what small percentage of the fans are sectarian. But it's adding nothing: people are unlikely to change their minds and you'll just get plenty of whataboutery in return- Mary Lou McDonald, Mick Conlan, your primary teacher etc etc


Edited by Floreat Ultonia - 29 Mar 2019 at 11:18am
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My only slight quibble there is the comparison between singing about paramilitary organisations and singing about a hating a group of people based on f**k all. The latter is far more damaging and certainly a hate crime. I think the outrage is a bit much, but I think it would be a lot less if they had been singing the remix of ‘Simply The Best’, even with the papal references.


I should clarify that context is important too! The well known Partick Thistle chant says they hate catholics too, as well as Protestants, Sikhs and Muslims, but it is clever and funny.


Edited by pre Madonna - 29 Mar 2019 at 11:11am
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Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Nationalists aren't really going to feel welcomed by the fact that Northern Ireland as an entity, and as a result a football association, exists.  It would be contradictory to the term 'nationalist', in an Irish context at least, to support Northern Ireland. 


True but then the Republic of Ireland (FAI) actually broke away causing two teams.  So would it not be also contradictory to support the Republic of Ireland.  Indeed maybe a true nationalist should just support NI and hope the splitters coming crawling back.  Big smile

I can actually remember well the GAA jibes re "Partitionist sport" etc in the 1970's.    
No, because it is the entities being represented is the problem. A nationalist would be undermining their own beliefs by supporting NI. I am not saying that people from that community can't or won't, just that  it would be at odds with the term nationalist. I couldn't give a f**k who people want to support, I just find it a bit nonsensical to have Ireland fans moaning about the IFA not doing enough to attract 'nationalist' fans when there is an obvious contradiction. 

As for the GAADead I did notice that the video in question  was shared by a GAA man, without a hint of irony!

Surely both entities are a problem for nationalists?  However the IFA were the original governing body for football on this island.  The Leinster FA (subsequently Free State and then FAI) broke away.  Indeed the IFA continued to pick an all-Ireland team until the FAI went to FIFA in 1950.  They made it clear that there are two different political entities here and that the IFA should stick to their own side etc.  FIFA agreed.  The last all-Ireland national football side that played in an official International game was v Wales in Wrexham in 1950.  Note the unofficial games (An Toastal)  v England in 55 & 56 and Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil do not count.

The IFA have done great work in ensuring that the NI team play in a neutral environment.  It is noisy and passionate but non threatening.  I agree that for many nationalists it will never be enough.  A new NI specific anthem and a new flag (Cross of St. Patrick anyone???) would also help but maybe that is up to the "government." However green shirts with a Celtic Cross on the badge aren't exactly cross community either are they?

The Celtic Cross is very cross community, no? Church of Ireland and Presbyterians both use it for a start. There's a famous one outside Belfast Cathedral and another on their altar.



Never noticed that thanks.  I always thought it was more of a Catholic symbol.

It was actually a bit tongue in cheek anyway.  I'm not aware of any Northern Ireland fans having problems with the colour of the shirts or the badge.  The point really is that you can always find something to complain about if you wish.

@FU Interesting by The FA,  I wonder will The Open Championship become the British Open now etc. 

@RB I would consider pro IRA/UVF songs to be far more offensive than simply anti Catholic/Protestant stuff.   
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Why would you think that? You have said it a couple of times now without explanation. I find that thinking totally illogical! 
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@G Spain: might well happen. Golf is more exclusive (both in spread of venues and support of fans) but we all need to move with the times Smile

The Irish FA has recently tended to follow the English, which in turn takes its lead from tabloid media. That explains the exaggerated poppy season nonsense in recent years

@P-Madge: religion is just a badge; the conflict is about nationality not doctrine etc etc. The Castlederg millies hate Nationalists (despite sharing their isolated rural backwater with them); those on the other side hate Unionists even if they euphemise by calling them 'England' (McDonald), DUP voters or NI fans who can be stereotyped as all thinking or behaving similarly, or even anyone who thinks other than that the 'Ra are a bit of a laugh.


Edited by Floreat Ultonia - 29 Mar 2019 at 2:20pm
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Originally posted by Floreat Ultonia Floreat Ultonia wrote:

@G Spain: might well happen. Golf is more exclusive (both in spread of venues and support of fans) but we all need to move with the times Smile

The Irish FA has recently tended to follow the English, which in turn takes its lead from tabloid media. That explains the exaggerated poppy season nonsense in recent years

@P-Madge: religion is just a badge; the conflict is about nationality not doctrine etc etc. The Castlederg millies hate Nationalists (despite sharing their isolated rural backwater with them); those on the other side hate Unionists even if they euphemise by calling them 'England' (McDonald), DUP voters or NI fans who can be stereotyped as all thinking or behaving similarly, or even anyone who thinks other than that the 'Ra are a bit of a laugh.
Of course it is, but hating 'Catholics' isn't just about transubstantiation, consecration, the fella in a funny hat  or really religion at all. A large number  of the people they are happy to hate wouldn't even be religious.  It is a broad cultural statement that is simply about hating the other side, what term is used to refer to them is largely irrelevant.  There is no ambiguity with that song that there would be with a song lionising any group with political aims(genuine or not). 
Even though I am not a 'Catholic', I would feel far more uncomfortable if I was in a pub where they were singing that 'they hate Roman Catholics' than if they were singing 'Build The  Gallows' or the 'Ballad of Billy Wright'(I have no idea if this is a song). 
I would also argue, although it is obviously just an opinion, that singing lines about hating 'Roman Catholics' is  far more likely to lead to an individual getting a hiding than singing about groups that actually carried out planned attacks. The singing about  the group is often what is rebellious, or perceived to be, there is nothing rebellious about 'hating' any group of people and singing about it.

Anyway, there's f**k all the IFA can do about it in this instance, the eejits singing it have got all the attention they wanted and people who like to be outraged on the other side got to watch a video they knew would outrage them. Personally, I am more annoyed that they are ruining my enjoyment of Tommy James' work, although 'Tiffany' must share some of the blame! 
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The reunification of Ireland is inevitable.Just 5 _10 years away.Anyone who doesn't see that is in denial.This guy Floreat seems to be like those who oppressed the Quebecois
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@Marti: I've only a passing interest in and knowledge of Quebecois politics, but thanks for asking.

I've thought since 2016 that a UI is more likely than not within 25 years. 5 is a daydream as I said, 10 unrealistic. Even if Unionists start voting Nationalist in large number, you're expecting the South to welcome a 40% population increase (many likely hostile) at a time of possible economic upheaval.
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The South will vote for it by an over whelming majority (if they have to).

What you need is for all people\parties to buy into the concept and then set a date, that date will be approx 2 years after the concept has been agreed.

This will make the transition to a UI a lot easier for both communities, assuming the Unionists come to the table, which they currently refuse to do so now.

This will also take initiative away from SF which may help sway the anti Republicans electorate.

What doesn't help matter is that FG through Frank Feighan and ultra Unionist Neale Richmond currently working on a project for Ireland to re-join the Commonwealth.

Mark Daly from FF has already published a report into a UI - https://senatormarkdaly.org/uniting-ireland-in-peace-prosperity/
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Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

The South will vote for it by an over whelming majority (if they have to).

What you need is for all people\parties to buy into the concept and then set a date, that date will be approx 2 years after the concept has been agreed.

This will make the transition to a UI a lot easier for both communities, assuming the Unionists come to the table, which they currently refuse to do so now.

This will also take initiative away from SF which may help sway the anti Republicans electorate.

What doesn't help matter is that FG through Frank Feighan and ultra Unionist Neale Richmond currently working on a project for Ireland to re-join the Commonwealth.

Mark Daly from FF has already published a report into a UI - https://senatormarkdaly.org/uniting-ireland-in-peace-prosperity/

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Erm, the thing which seems to have been missed by a lot of people in Ireland is that, as co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement, they would still be bound by it. That is, the institutions in the North would remain even if there is a United Ireland. Rather than sending MPs to Westminster, they'd send TDs to Dublin, but Belfast's powers would remain the same and the assembly would remain the same (well, assuming there is an assembly).
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Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Erm, the thing which seems to have been missed by a lot of people in Ireland is that, as co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement, they would still be bound by it. That is, the institutions in the North would remain even if there is a United Ireland. Rather than sending MPs to Westminster, they'd send TDs to Dublin, but Belfast's powers would remain the same and the assembly would remain the same (well, assuming there is an assembly).

Well, would the GFA not be replaced and superceded by another agreement in the event of a reunification vote? 
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Possibly, but the Irish Government have already recognised the right of the people of the North to self-determination and the right of people there to identify as British or Irish, even in the event of a United Ireland.

So even if there is a UI, people living there will continue to be entitled to a British passport.
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I'd say that Hong Kong is a good place to look for how a post reunification NI might look. Their own devolved legislature and first minister equivalent, numberplates, road signs, police. Even their plugs are the same as those used in Ireland and UK, although we won't have that issue. So something which looks very much as it did before, but has a different set of landlords. 

I would think that in the event of a UI, things will look very similar to now in all of our lifetimes and it will only be after decades of small changes that things start to harmonise. Our great grandchildren will know a different place to us, but we already know a vastly different world to our great grandparents. 

You couldn't get rid of the NI Civil Service, due to how many people work there, so there will be different laws and departments instead of harmonisation. And with that will bring a different healthcare and education system.

We've seen the problem with the RUC policing nationalist areas in the troubles, I think the PSNI will remain as An Garda Siochána couldn't be expected to police the spicier areas of East Belfast.

The principal differences would probably be adoption of the Euro and DUP TDs sitting in Leinster House, frustrating proceedings. Maybe the multinationals would move into Belfast where there are universities and no housing shortages, especially if there is a post unification trade agreement with the UK, taking propserity away from Dublin. 

I think that the North has nothing to fear and can only gain. Like in the Brexit negotiations where the rest of the UK kicked off and asked "why can't we have that deal?". 

Let's face it, life is fairly atrocious in those East Belfast terraces, or loyalist estates on Belfast outskirts. I don't see what they have to fear in a change. And, under a United Ireland, life will still be sh*t for those nationalist areas with high levels of drug use, suicide and joyriding. 


Edited by inlikeflynn - 31 Mar 2019 at 9:33am
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@Horsey: I probably agree with yr first point, but the crucial point is 'when' more than 'if'. There won't be UI until it has consistent support well over 50% in NI. Southern opinion will match that, but what they say now doesn't matter so much.

Getting Unionists to "buy in" might be possible in the short timetable you and Marti mention: alternatively it may take decades. There have been big shifts in opinion since 2016. Let's see how they're reflected in the May elections. Last time (GE 2017), scoreboard was Unionist 49%, Nationalist 41%, Others 10%. The change might be telling...

I doubt SF will lose initiative, not least because they will always be a bogeyman for Unionists.

Feighan and Richmond will likely be off the scene before the endgame and anyway are an eccentric minority. FG Partitionist # Unionist btw.

@Super Dave & D9-69: in a UI the GFA would be superseded. Arguably it already has been: the intent in 1998 was to prevent return to conflict, enshrine rights and get everyone to behave civilly to each other in Stormont. So that's about 1.5 out of 3 at best.

@InLikeFlynn: ex-NI might look like Hong Kong, but there are other possibilities- East Germany, say? Unionist lobbies ahead of any referendum are likely to talk up being stranded in a poor, isolated region of a UI.

Your Garda reference is interesting. In a way it's a cop-out- if the Irish State can't guarantee to police its extra citizens, why take them on? The PSNI still patrol Ardoyne or Creggan even if no-one there loves them/ is off their head on whatever 'spicier'...

What are you basing sweeping generalisations about life being horrible on? I was in Belfast last week- there's still a best-kep estate sign in Rathcoole, Ballysillan isn't visibly grottier than the tougher parts of Birmingham, Wolverhampton or Coventry near me.

I think I mentioned on here an RTE panel show last year where they discussed possible future urban geography of Ireland. Basically (and with apologies to the Western corridor), population and economy will be concentrated in a 'ribbon' megacity from Rosslare through Dublin up to Belfast. There might be a move northward simply because Dublin is too expensive to live/ work in, or if the Port area is rezoned for housing and Belfast gets more shipping. There'd be resistance to the idea, but on the other hand it probably would be in everyone's interest to revive Befast as a business hub.
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